Is Equine Therapy A Hoax ?

foreign it's sick a horse fiddle okay all right I only went to see the doctor and because he had a sore throat and the doctor said you'll be okay you're just a little hoarse okay horse jokes today yeah way to go man yeah you told them just like a little kid would too those are the best ones I found all right those are good yeah um so topic today we just got back from this training is uh horse therapy it's horse therapy just a hoax it's Equine Therapy I hope yeah that's a good topic today um all right yeah well why don't you uh why don't you talk a little bit about your experience over the last three days first yeah well so you know the last little bit uh last few years in our Collective lives we've had horses become more and more a part of them and me through you through Rhiannon through some friends of yours the larsons and just this last weekend we had a training uh put on by uh okay Corral um that was actually pretty insightful in a lot of ways that uh opened me up to the way you can utilize a horse for the purpose of helping people work through their trauma and kind of become a little bit more stabilized um pun intended um so I for me I've only been around horses a handful of times and it's always been with you guys um so you guys have kind of taken the lead and you know shown me what to do and this was one of the first times where I got to really just kind of be around the horse and not have a whole lot going on at times so I mean just sitting there petting the horse like letting one kind of sniff my face or you know whatever but for a long periods of time hours hours um and I I you know all the observation of them interacting with each other and more tons of people we had at some point like over 30 plus people interacting in the same space um with horses and and it kind of opened me up in a different way that I I hadn't been exposed to him so um I've got all my gears kind of moving right now wondering how to implement and use this as a resource and I'm I'm curious what your experience has been what what Transformations you've seen in the work that you've already done like you've used this I haven't um so what what's been your experience and how how beneficial it's been uh it's been quite a ride you know we nice hey hey you got them too all right it has been quite a ride and uh it started a long time ago when we had these friends of ourselves Larson's actually sort of we had they had a son-in-law who gave our daughters our two oldest daughters some like horseback riding lessons and then we got to know the larsons and after getting to know them they asked us to come and be a part of this non-profit that they were starting um probably because they wanted a therapy aspect they had the horses I had the therapy and and somewhere in the middle Rhiannon my wife was uh was in that too and we ended up going up to Idaho to look at some horses specifically to start a non-profit organization and while we're at lunch up there my wife got talking with Ryan about her situation and how she had been really struggling with our kids transitioning away from being at home all the time to being in school all the time and Rhiannon has spent the last you know 20 years being a stay-at-home mom helping our kids and nurturing them and being there for them and all of a sudden they're gone and so she was feeling this transition Point some depression some kind of crisis of like identity and and she just got talking to Ryan about the horses and said I'll help you with the non-profit she got into school started learning about the horses and I think the horses did her an amazing service of pulling her out of this depression helping her to kind of find some purpose and identity again so should I start this non-profit and they start running groups for kids and then also for women who've been traumatized who've been abused and uh in both situations they start seeing these outcomes where the kids are able to regulate themselves really well and these women who've been traumatized are starting to kind of hold their heads up a little bit higher and they're reporting that they're setting boundaries at home and and then we got invited to do work with a family of a teenage daughter a 14 year old girl who was a problem child you know but we decided to have the whole family come and we did six weeks with them a horse assisted therapy and after the first week we realized it wasn't really the daughter it was a whole family system issue and it was about getting the father and the mother on the same page with their parenting and getting the dad more engaged with his daughter and in six weeks time complete change like the daughter started being more social at school she started wanting to go back to her softball and sports practices they were laughing with each other they were loving each other the father was stepping in in his role a lot more as a as a father and it was just a beautiful thing to watch and so every every single thing I'm watching it's like it's working better than I do when I'm sitting around in my therapy office you know and so and then the kicker for me was before any of this stuff that you just talked about was we had taken our younger kids over and had them be around the horses a lot and riding and teach them how to regulate their emotions because the horses are brilliant at that and we were at home one day my youngest daughter has this tendency to like just shut down like when she's you know boots hey boots how's it going you know like when she's when she's stressed or anxious she just shuts down and so we had one of those moments with her where she had done something like not done a chore or something we started talking to her she started to shut down we backed off she left the room and then she was walking through the hallway she didn't hear me I she didn't know I heard her do this but she stopped when she took a deep breath and she said just like the horses and then she started to like breathe and calm herself down and I was like dude this stuff's working like this stuff this stuff's totally working and so I've noticed it with myself and then this training to me you know especially the very last day it was like it was awesome the last day we had some actual real clients come and do it and doing one of the activities that we were being taught and you could just see and feel inside of their eyes you could actively see a shift kind of taking place in them right in front of us at least to me that's what I noticed and so I am all in on on horses in terms of what I think they can do for good for other people especially especially if they're used with the right intention and I had that same experience um just on the last day just kind of reinforcing that that um it was almost like everything that we were learning up to that point was uh theoretical you know we're we're this is how you'd use it if a client was present and this you know kind of see if you can get them to do this and this is why you know it was just all this kind of like high level um uh Theory but then as soon as we had a real live client and we had eight of them show up and they did this intervention that ended up being really beautiful to watch I mean it probably took about an hour oh yeah at least an hour yeah and we're all just kind of sitting on the sidelines just quiet letting it letting it happen and there were so many points though in that intervention that you could see lights going off in people's heads and connections starting to be made or even the moments where they were frustrated or whatever was going on but by the end of it when when we came and sat down together and were processing it as a group there was a totally different energy in the room and it wasn't just that they had accomplished the thing which that's that's great you know um for for them and feeling that sense of accomplishment but um more than that it was that a little piece of them had changed inside and we all got to witness it and that to me was really special because I don't really get to see that you know just from where I'm at and um and what we're doing and with that um it was cool to see the emotion in certain individuals when they're talking about what happened out there or when they got congratulated for for something um that to me was really special and I I'm curious you you said something to the effect of like it's the horses produce better outcomes than what you see when you're just in your office what's the difference like what does a horse do it's just an animal yeah yeah that's a good question I you know I think I think we do do some good in the office but it's a different kind of work there's something about number one being in a new space where most people haven't ever really been around horses to that level so it's different it's new but the horses they provide this sort of like you have to be so focused on whatever it is you're trying to do with the horses that you can't keep your masks on and so the truth come the truth comes out right and and all of us do this we all have our own sort of masks our own pretenses our own performances even when you come to a therapist for help for something you usually package up in a way that you feel like is more palatable right what the horses do is one they just sort of take that away instantly because the horses can feel your energy they feel when you're anxious they feel when you're calm they can sense your body language they send they can sense your heartbeat from 14 feet away like it's like they they are a mirror in a sense and um and I think that's part of it I also think the experience there's something there's something about the Beauty and the power of those animals that when you're in their presence and when you're actively engaged with them in whatever way you are it can't help but be some kind of an emotionally moving experience and and you and I both believe in the power of an emotionally corrective experience one for Change and so the horse is almost instantly sort of provide that similar like what nature does you know it's just so big and vast and beautiful that just being in it is its own intervention and I think it's similar with with the horses especially in a world where now almost nobody has much experience with horses yeah right you know maybe the most they ever did was ride at the pony party that the guy came and brought the Little Pony around you know at their house or whatever but most other people haven't really been around horses much yeah you know so it's a completely new and novel thing for a lot of people well I mean I I had that's kind of speaks true of me I seen horses I'd even ridden horses a couple times growing up but they it wasn't like we were doing that regularly right it was so every time it I got on one or was around one it felt foreign yeah and you know that was when I was a kid give span however many decades and all of a sudden we're here and out doing these exercises and in the space and I've I've been with you guys on like uh rides or something or um you know the pack trips and but even those things for some reason the it's like the the intimacy is a little bit different than just being in an arena where you're in there they're in there they're loose they don't have anything on them yeah and they're just moseying around checking stuff out wherever they please um that to me was almost an intervention by itself it's just go be in the same space as a horse as an unharnessed horse yeah and and figure out how to be yeah in that space yeah like that was maybe one of the best um things that I got to witness too is just how the horse would come up and like touch people or like the best what it was Rosie or Rose uh just you know she's the newest horse in the herd and she's just backing everybody up she she get she finds somebody she wasn't super fond of where they're positioned and she started started just putting her butt straight to him and like getting getting him to move which is a way of a horse yeah moving something yeah moving somebody and she did that to me a number of times I was like get it here you know she was trying to establish her place in the in the herd and the herd and she's pretty high in the packing she's higher than you yeah me and Marie um yeah that to me was a beautiful process was just being there with horses and you know like what you were saying uh about their their presence being able to feel their bodies you know at one point I just rested my hand on the back of one of them and I just tried to feel them breathing tried to see if I could sense their heartbeat um see if they'd move you know what what kind of reaction they'd have and it was it's almost like this transference of energy and just ah so much power you know um it was really invigorating and and um I think partly because they really do have so much power there's such a a muscular strong animal um if you've ever seen them jump or kick or or Trot even you you can hear it you can feel it you can hear and feel it so it's it is a significant thing to be around an animal of that size it's not I mean not to say uh being around dogs or cats or something else wouldn't have a positive impact on you but it's not the same it's nowhere near the same um so that to me is kind of a profound thing and and that it shifts your energy automatically by being around such a large powerful animal oh 100 yeah just like what you were saying about nature it's like the level of control you have is kind of out the door you basically in some ways surrender control which is interesting with the horses because you have to go in there and you acknowledge this thing as much bigger much more powerful than me it speaks a different language than I do I'm learning the language of the horse was powerful this weekend like oh wow like I I see horses in such a different light now than even I did last week and I've been around the horses for years a lot yeah I was like wow like I understand them so much differently now but to to be able to work with something that is much more powerful and in in our cases more volatile you know at least the way that they feel to me to get it to move a certain way or to get it to give you its front its foot you know when a horse is use its feet to stay protected and to to yield a foot to you knowing what that means to the horse is like there's something in that that felt powerful and it felt like like this partnership kind of an idea of almost a way of like harnessing power and um yeah it was it was a really beautiful experience for me for sure so what have you what experience have you had personally with horses for your own work do you feel like there's been any kind of internal transformation rather than just what you've observed in others and acknowledging the power like what about you personally yeah um my wife my wife has diagnosed me with a few things several things among which are is anxiety just check your fingernails dude yeah like hey oh I relapsed over the weekend I was doing so good too I went like two months dang it I didn't realize I relapsed until you pointed that out so I bite my fingernails because you guys are watching when I'm stressed and nervous so um to the point that I bleed so so anyway like [Laughter] know that you actually had it uh you know chewed on anything recently so yeah you're like the fact that you're like no I'm doing pretty good oh shoot I'm not even aware of it I did that over the weekend so sorry for anyway yeah thanks for shooting my horse okay back to your original question I it wasn't really apparent to me that I maybe had some anxiety though I've dealt with my whole life I actually think I do have it on some level after she pointed it out to me and one of the ways that it became manifest was a couple of years ago where we were working with these horses we were riding the horses she's riding this horse just beautifully and I'll take a turn I jump up on the horse and the horse is just like no no like it's like all the way it was like what am I doing I'm doing the same things you were doing you know and she's like breathe Tyler I'm like and I breathe out and I feel my body softening right when I soften the horse just like walks just starts walking I'm like what the heck like that was magic you know and then then I get all amped up again the horses start getting like little jumping Spike Tyler breathe Just Breathe and all of a sudden boom and calm down and the more that I've been around the horse is The more I've become in touch with my own body and the more that I've been able to actually like regulate my emotions and my anxiety in ways that I didn't even know I wasn't doing before and I wonder how many times my own energy has been pushed on other people without me even knowing it it was just there whatever that was anxious energy like why is this client not doing this and I'm thinking like look in the mirror Bud like you know like hey you need to learn how to regulate yourself a little bit better so so that's been part of the big change for me um watching the horses when nobody else is around has been changing for me too because I sit and I watch their social interactions and you can feel there's something that's almost like sacred about being in that space just being a witness it's quiet silent they speak a silent language most of the time and there's something powerful in that silence to me and it reinforced for me the value of finding time and space for myself to just be in quiet meditation and silence that's been a big change for me and yeah and uh and then just watching them around my kids you know watching a little girl this big manage saddle ride on horses a horse this tall and watching how those horses will allow themselves to be interacted with by my little girls was has been really powerful too so it's been I it's been really beneficial to my own life for sure I just want to kind of Point go back to um what you were saying about the the silent language that they communicate to each other with so um we were told that 93 of communication communication is non-verbal um sub seven for the verbal and I I think as he was explaining that to us it was like that sounds like just a made-up stat you know um yeah but like that it came up with the three on the end of the 90. like they've got it nailed yeah yeah yeah 93.75 you know um but the the rest of that weekend I was trying to pay attention to the nonverbal cues between horse to horse between person to horse between person to person and the group dynamics all the herd Dynamics all of that and there really is a lot that takes place just silently and how often do we miss those cues when you know maybe we're like you were saying not aware of our own body language and what's going on how are we showing up holding our breath or short breathing or or just tense or or even just like really loose whatever you know maybe the other end of the spectrum um and how that impacts the the communication and the relationship and I've been trying to be a little bit more aware of how those things uh represent show up in in my own life and try and read how it might be be impacting somebody else that's around me and what you're inviting into your life too yeah with your own body language you know if I'm sitting at that conference and I have I'm the nicest person in the world but I'm sitting there like this the whole time like how many people are going to want to come talk to me you know but I don't know that I'm like why does nobody ever want to talk to me like you know well there was one instance with the horses where this lady just totally got pushed around by the horse like totally just got like basically bullied by the horse and and everyone was like what are you doing like that horse is getting away with stuff you know yeah and and she was like it's like I was just letting the horse demonstrate what boundaries look like from their perspective and it's like I wonder what happens in your own life with boundaries you know like I hope you're okay and you take care of yourself you know like you don't get walked on you know yeah so anyway it's funny that we we sometimes are inviting the very things that are getting produced in our lives without even knowing it because we're just not aware of it of that that 93 of the non-verbal right but and kind of going you know bringing it full circle that the coolest thing one of the cool things about horses is that they help show us that they help us to see um maybe the things that people aren't willing to say a lot of the time like hey man chill out or you know what's going on for you um the moment you're around one or try and ride one I mean we were just doing groundwork for the most part and even just in that ground work there's there's so much feedback that you get of the horse is like all right dude I'm trying to figure out what's going on for you so I can do whatever you want me to what do you want me to do because you're telling me to do one thing but then your body language says do another and and it's off so get it lined up and and even just that that process of trying to rectify the the internal disharmony yeah try to align that yeah yeah that was good work yeah it was beautiful work it was beautiful oh yeah I I think I if nothing else has gotten me really excited about the prospect of what's possible to do with these horses and to think about the people that we work with and how it could actually help them like it will really help them 100 right now not not just in this like you know we've been talking a lot about body language and stuff like that but those are all kind of signifiers of something deeper going on and you know I'm listening to the body keeps the score we kind of told you that the other day and this book all about how our body holds trauma and so one of the things you know if you're hunched in you're tight and um or you're tense up whenever somebody a man walks in the room or something like that um typically those are related back to some earlier history and thinking about the people that we work with and how you know a lot of it is that we're trying to work on addiction or infidelity or sobriety with one of these things and and ultimately the thing that we're trying to help people with is to work through their trauma and shame and these horses are going to be a huge gift in in that process a massive tool and I think that's really where our practice is really focused is on trauma and shame and I mean even in the body keeps the score which was written a long time ago one of the preferred modalities for treating trauma was through the horses for those same reasons and just watching how the horses handle their own forms of trauma you know like the way that they the way that they shake out and the way that they lick each other in certain parts of their body to relieve tension and stress and just all sorts of things not that we're gonna be looking at each other but yeah yeah you know just amazing to see that there's so much to be learned there and I am actually really really grateful for the opportunity that we have to be a part of this project with the horses and I'm looking forward with you to to doing much more with them than we have so far so [Music]