#26: What Is REAL Femininity?

00:01 What is true Femininity? What's up, you guys? Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast. I'm Brannon. I'm Tyler. We're brothers. We're therapists. We're not afraid of your questions, so bring it. All right. Before before we get into that question, quick review here. 00:31 So it says so so much affirmation, empathy and edifying. It's nice to know I'm not crazy and I can and will get through the pain. Lots of education and most of all, connection. So thank you. That's awesome. Really nice. So that's what we want to do. We want you to know there's hope you can get through pain and just kind of be a support as you do that and give any tidbits of knowledge, information and truth to help you through it. 01:05 So it's good to hear that that's what's happening. Thank you for the review. We appreciate those things. So, Brandon, now I'm going to introduce our guests today. We've got an awesome guest on today with some really good questions. And these questions were sparked from an episode that we had two weeks ago on my rant about my pet peeve and Masculinity. So Rachel is here with us today and she had some questions that kind of spun off of that topic. 01:38 So for the people who are listening to this episode, you may want to go back and listen to the other episode, but Rachel, glad to have you with us. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you for having me. Why don't you just jump in and kind of introduce why you're here, what questions you want to have answered and basically how you came to the questions. Sure. Thanks. Well, when I listen to that Masculinity podcast, I was really impressed. 02:07 And quite honestly, it was a little bit triggering. I'm not going to lie because I recognized within myself that when the topic of Femininity came up that it kind of hit me a little bit sideways. That word has always been a little bit triggering. I just really don't know what to do with it. It's layered, I think, for me. 02:30 And I think for a lot of women, I don't know if it's the definition itself or if it's what I picked up along the way in my life that kind of made me uneasy with that topic in general. I think what my question boils down to is like, what is true Femininity? Is it safe and how do I nurture it in my life? 02:58 I think those are some of the primary questions I'm seeking for me. The way I process is I have a difficult time doing anything about something that I can't really wrap my mind around. It's kind of like name it to payment. And right now I feel stuck in not being able to even name what's going on. It feels like it's swirling, like I don't understand what Femininity is. 03:27 And probably the agreements that I've picked up along the way are kind of clouding that even more. Rachel, can I start answering that question by TranscribeMe1kind of throwing it back at you and asking you, what is your understanding of femininity? When you think of empowering your femininity or really embracing that? Like you say, it's convoluted and kind of confusing. 04:00 What is it like? If you were to say what femininity is, what would you say? Do you want to know the truth? Yes. And I might get stoned for this. This is the truth. This is how I feel, and this is what I picked up in my life. I see femininity as superficial, I see femininity as weak. 04:30 I see femininity as very risky. I see femininity as I think that's where I get confused about what is the definition of it, because I think it's not clearly defined. And so if you give me a definition, then maybe I can wrap my mind around it in a different way. But when I think about femininity, I've been told throughout my life directly in certain situations, if you want to make it. 05:01 I remember being in a professor's office as a graduate student, and I was a research assistant for my professor. And my friend walked in and she wanted a prestigious position in a New York company. And the professor had worked there. And she looked at my friend and she said, you look like and you're an expletive. She's like, you need to cut your hair. She said, this is a white man's world, and your goal is to look as neutral as possible. 05:31 And the next day I saw my friend, her hair was cut, and she got the position. And it's just those types of things that lead me to believe that your femininity, you can't really embrace it because it won't allow you to progress. Right. 05:58 And so I want to keep asking you, where did that come from? Right. So you had that experience in College. That's a good example. But I imagine that this started long before that. What I'm hearing is you were taught that it's a man's world. 06:22 The more masculine you are, the more you're going to thrive, the more feminine you are, the more you're going to struggle. And femininity is superficial and weak and those things. I appreciate your honesty because I think a lot of people feel the same way. Rachel, did those messages start coming to you at a really young age? Like, where did that come from? 06:52 Well, I grew up. I'm the only girl in my family. I have four brothers. So I grew up very masculine home. Yeah. And I never was told that I couldn't do something because I was a girl. It was pretty much like I could do whatever I wanted. There was plenty of space for that. But a significant story that just seared in me was when I was in junior high, I was in an algebra class, and my algebra teacher, I did well, and he accused me of cheating. 07:25 He said, the girls can't do math. Wow. And so he would move me to the front of the room so he could watch me. Well, I still did well. And for the exams, for the test, he would move me right by his desk so he could watch me because he said, girls can't do math. I did well on all the tests, but at the end of the quarter, he gave me an A minus. But I was livid. 07:53 And I saved all my tests and my assignments, and I took them to the counselor and I said, I want out. I want my grade changed and I want to be out of this classroom. And they did both. I sat there for 4 hours because I wasn't going to leave until he did it. Good for you. But those are the messages that I was sent. TranscribeMe208:17 But the subtle message there is what I mean, the subtle message there is like if you're a woman, you're not supposed to be, like, smart, especially at math. Right? Right. That's the subtle message there. It's still that subtle. Yeah, I Bettle. Yeah. Okay. So I'm kind of trying to just flush out, like, where these messages have come from. 08:46 And what are the messages? I want to ask you guys a question. Both. Tyler, Rachel, do we live in a man's world? Do we live in kind of a patriarchal system man's world? What would you say? I think it depends on which aspect of the world you're looking at. Okay. 09:17 What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that, Rachel? Well, I think for me, I have been a professional work professionally, and I felt like I really had to step into more of a masculine role in those situations, whereas I chosen to be a stay at home mom for the past few years. And I feel like in that way I have been able to. 09:46 But it doesn't feel like the white man's world that it did when I had to daily prove myself. But when you were out there in the world, at the workplace, it felt more so that way. Oh, definitely. I remember when I first started one of the partners, he came to me and said, Stick to the transactional work and leave the litigation for the big boys. Direct quote. Yeah. 10:17 I want to ask you guys some questions. So a man comes in assertive to work and just, like, kind of rolling some heads and getting stuff done. How is he viewed? He's viewed as masculine. Good for him. That's a boss right there. A woman comes in assertive, kind of rolling some heads and getting stuff done. How is she viewed? I can tell you how she's viewed because I've been there. 10:45 And even when I tone it down, even if I'm, like, direct with people, I happen to be on the school board here where I live. And when I show up and I am direct. I've had people say, wow, you're over the top. Tone it down. I'm probably talking with the same tone that I'm talking right now. I'm not talking, like, placidly or delicately, just like, straightforward. And I've actually been pulled aside and said, do you realize how you're coming across? 11:15 And I'm like, oh, my gosh, right. Basically trying to tone you down. Right. A woman being out there like, she's a bitch. She's way over the top. She's assertive. She needs to kind of shut up. Think about another way to look at how we're in a man's world is sex. Let's say a man goes out and gets a bunch of girls. 11:47 Right. He's kind of viewed it as like, wow, good for him. Look at him go, right? Conquest. Yeah. A woman goes out and has sex with a bunch of guys. How is she viewed? There's double standard everywhere sex. You can really see it in our thinking. It's good for men to have pleasure and be sexual. 12:18 We hardly ever talk about a vagina or a clitoris because we don't go there. But a man really being sexual is okay. I don't treat very many women sex addicts because there's so much shame around women being sexual. So it's not just sex, it's everything. I think women are being attacked and told to just conform into this man's world. 12:50 And so, Rachel, I can see where these beliefs that you have are. And it's like, okay, if I want to be feminine and fit into this man's world, then I need to become superficial and be very fit into that world. And that's what TranscribeMe3femininity is. And I would argue that it's anything like real, true femininity is anything but what you believe that it is. 13:22 Go ahead, Tyler. Can I step in here, too, for a second? Brandon, I think that's what you're painting is part of what the problem is here is that we do live in I mean, the workplace, you could say the workplace, by and large, is a masculine place. And I don't mean that women can't succeed there, but they have to put on their masculine to be successful in the workplace in many places. Right. 13:48 But the problem with this is that we live in a world where even the feminists, in order to fight for women, have to show up masculine, which means that they're not actually fighting for femininity. A lot of the time, they don't understand the benefits, the blessings of what it means to actually be feminine because they're so busy fighting to survive in the masculine parts of the world. 14:21 Does that make sense? So every woman who's been mistreated the same way that Rachel has is they feel like the answer has to be that I have to shun anything that could be seen as feminine, because it's going to mean that I'm weak, that it's going to mean that it's superficial, that it's going to mean that it's unstable or insecure. A lot of people had experiences where there's actually been pain. 14:52 So it makes sense that those feelings are there, right? I mean, it totally makes sense why Rachel is showing up and saying, like, as soon as you guys started talking about masculinity and I'm over here going like, oh, like, what is femininity then? Because I have this pushback on it. Well, it makes sense, but the answer isn't to push back on it in order to be more masculine. The answer is to understand how masculine and feminine actually interplay together in a beautiful sort of complimentary way when it's not done in a coercive way like you've experienced. 15:36 It's not masculinity versus femininity. Masculinity will actually empower and embrace femininity. There's a Yin and Yang. Masculinity helps femininity come out and femininity helps masculinity come out. 16:00 And that's what that polarity is. There's a big difference, Rachel, I think and tell me what you think about this. There's a big difference between masculinity healthy masculinity and patriarchy. This Dominion, this power and control systems that to me, isn't real masculinity, that's patriarchy. 16:31 And it actually that does attack femininity, that does break it down and send all these messages about it that it's actually not good. What do you think about that, Rachel? I agree. I think that's true. So then what is femininity? Tyler answered her question. It's like one of my favorite topics. 17:02 I know, Brandon. As soon as I introduced the topic today, Brandon was like, yes, I love it. I love it. Okay. This is a great topic. What is femininity? Well, I think, Brandon, you brought that up a couple of weeks ago when we did talk about it, but you didn't explain it as much with your handout that you showed on the different sides of things, right? Yes. Femininity also. 17:31 And Rachel, just tell me what your response is. Tell me what your emotional response is to these words as it relates to whether or not it fits for femininity. Femininity is acceptance. Femininity is receiving. Femininity is creation. Femininity is connection. TranscribeMe418:01 What's your response to those words? I can live with those words. What say that one more time. I can live with those words. Could they fit under could they fit under the idea of what it means to be feminine? Sure. But I guess I get confused because I see that as part of a wholehearted living on both sides, whether you're masculine or feminine. 18:30 And I just don't see a distinction. Maybe that's where I'm confused, because I believe that men need connection just as much as women. Okay, so let me pause for a minute and I'm going to back up to a concept that I was taught as it related to a principle called mindfulness. But I promise I'll bring it back into feminine and masculine. Here I was taught the concept of something called the wise mind. 18:57 And the wise mind idea says that we as human beings operate best when we are walking. What's called the middle path. And the middle path is the fusion between two ways of seeing the world and filtering information. And on one hand, one of those filters that we have as human beings is we have what's called the rational mind. The rational mind does the thinking, it does the logic. It sounds like you're really strong with your own rational mind in terms of mathematics and things, you've excelled at those things. 19:28 The rational mind looks for solutions. It's goal oriented, it's organized. It's driven the other mind, so to speak, that has to be balanced is called the emotional mind. The emotional mind is everything that happens that allows us to actually find meaning in the world that we're living in or the experiences that we're having. And the emotionally minded person. 19:57 Their main drive is connection. Their main drive is relationship. Their main drive is the emotional mind is responsible for impulses and motivation. And those things are impermanent, and they're not stable, but they're really valuable and very important. Well, when I teach this concept to a group of people or to a client, almost always, and these are just in general terms. 20:25 So it's not always because we can fall somewhere along the dispersion of these scales. But almost always I say, what's wrong with the rational mind left to its own devices? And they'll say, well, it can make mistakes and it feels cold and it feels robotic. And then I said, what's wrong with the emotional mind? And the emotional mind says, well, it's erratic and it's impulsive and it feels kind of crazy and it's a little bit unstable. 20:54 And then if I take it a step further, I say, do you know anybody who would fall to one side of the other a lot of the time? Almost always when I'm working with the couple, the wife will say, oh, man, he is totally robotic. He's cold. He won't interact with me. He sees everything is a means to an end. And then I'll turn around and he'll say, she's totally just like erratic. I can't tell where she's at all the time. I don't know what she's feeling. 21:24 I don't know what she's thinking. Like, I can't get anything right because there's no consistency. And so if you look at it in that context, the wise mind says, I need the fusion of both. I need the rational mind and the emotional mind. And because I'm a man doesn't mean I can't be in touch with feminine things. And because you're a woman doesn't mean you can't be in touch with masculine things. 21:51 But by and large, if we were to take the general population, most women would lean towards the emotional mind and work on bringing the rational mind into being wiseminded. And men would have to be focused on TranscribeMe5learning how to be more in touch with their emotions and more expressive with their emotions and more understanding of what those emotions are actually telling them because they lean towards this kind of compartmentalized way of seeing and viewing the world. 22:22 Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. Can I add this part when you're describing the emotional mind, those are some of the pieces that erratic, the instability, all of that crazy making. I personally have women's issues, too. That's what turns me off about women, because they are unstable. 22:48 I would rather walk into a room full of men than a room full of women, because I can figure out the men better than I can figure out the women because they are like a little bit erratic. You have to walk on eggshells a little bit more. They're not as straightforward to me. That's confusing. Rachel, I can feel your rejection and resistance to femininity. I can sense it. 23:17 I can really feel it. Right. It's a problem. Yes. And what's interesting, like if we were to dig in with you a little bit, not all men are masculine and not all women are feminine. Sometimes women are more masculine and men are more feminine. It's rare. It's very rare. And oftentimes what I've seen sometimes with that is women have kind of overcompensated or they're trying to control some things or scared of something, so they turn into the masculine. 23:52 But deep down in their essence, they're feminine, but they've kind of taken on the role depending on the marriage that they're in or the workplace that they're in of the masculine. But what I am feeling from you, Rachel, is this resistance to femininity. And I want to talk about this erratic behavior. We think of the woman as this kind of uncontrolled, erratic, irrational thing. 24:25 And a couple of things about that. I actually think there's some truth there that women cycle emotionally. We know that. But it's very important. The wind needs to kind of kick up the seeds a little bit sometimes so that things can grow. And it's not just consistency, but it's change. 24:54 Femininity is good for creating that change. Femininity is really good for there are cycles in femininity where there's life and there's just like creation and then there's death and there's rest. And the feminine energy shows those cycles where masculinity is more just kind of consistent. 25:18 And I was on a hike this morning and I walked through a part of the mountain that got burned last month, and it was like I was looking at all the little green trees growing underneath the dead trees. And without that fire, all those new trees wouldn't be growing. Yes. 25:44 You look at it if you judge it and say, that's bad, it shouldn't be that way because we're living in a man's world and you're not going to be effective at work. If you have a bad day and you don't want to talk to anyone, then you just see that as bad. But if you shift your perspective and really see that those cycles of femininity and those creative winds that go. That's what creates human beings. 26:12 That's what makes it possible for, like, the hormones and all of those things to come and create. And so it's a beautiful, wonderful important thing. But yeah. Does it cause some emotion? Does it cause some friction and some change? It does. Right. So what do you think about that, Rachel? I think it's TranscribeMe6true. 26:41 I think all of what you said is true. It's interesting, and I don't know what to do with it. I think part of what you're bringing up, Brandon, is that you just referenced a forest fire to illustrate new growth. And I think most of us right now would agree that nobody should go set a forest fire right now. What I'm getting at with that is that we live in a world, and this is maybe the masculine part of the world. 27:13 We live in a world where we're always looking for certainty and stability. And that steadiness that you reference with the masculine side of things because change in and of itself, because that chaos that comes in a forest fire, that lack of stability can lead to vulnerability, which can cause a lot of problems in our life, especially as it relates. You can see why someone like Rachel would say, Man, I can't. But hang on. 27:43 I want to ask Rachel this. Let's say my wife is just having one of those days, right? Bad day for no reason at all. And she just kind of hates me a little bit if I go and I reject her femininity and I'm like, that's stupid. You shouldn't be feeling that way. Like, get over it. Like, buck up. How's that going to go for me? Well, you're not going to earn any brownie points. 28:14 You're going to be sleeping at my house. Come on, get better. You're fine. What you're feeling isn't valid. Here's the logic of it. Here's the truth. Get over it. That's not going to be awesome, right? So if I reject her femininity and her emotions and what she's feeling, that's not going to work for our polarity and our connection. 28:37 If I see that as an important part of her and who she is an important part of her as a mother, her as a human, then I can go home and she can have one of those days, and I'm not going to freak out. I'm going to actually be there for her. I can stay steady. I can stay grounded while she's not steady or not grounded, and I can actually be grateful for her femininity and what's going to happen when I show up in that kind of masculine energy with her feminine energy? 29:15 What do you think will happen, Rachel? Well, I know because my husband's really good at this. Good for him. He's good when I'm acting my worst and he shows up in his best. I have nothing but pure gratitude for him because I know that he sees who I truly am rather than what my actions are at that moment. 29:43 But, Rachel, when you say you're acting your worst already, negative connotation. Right. But if you're having one of those days, maybe it's not bad. Maybe it's okay. That your spirit, your body is telling you, hey, take a break. Get some distance. Take some space from people. 30:11 What I'm saying is going as far to accept the feminine, to say, yes, you can be feminine. It's okay. It's not bad in any way. Am I going too far there, Rachel? I don't know if it's too far. I think in this scenario, it's not too far. Okay. I think in other scenarios, I've gotten burned severely by women, and I've been wounded by them. 30:40 And so for me, yes, it goes too far because I can't accept the behaviors that they can't tolerate the behaviors they provided. And so in those instances, no, I don't think they should be accepted. I can't ride that wave with them. Question, were you burned by women or burned by femininity? Burned by TranscribeMe7women. And I associate the two. I bet you've been burned by men some, too, in your life. 31:11 Sure. Right. But you associate those negative experiences with their femininity, right? Well, because it's all the erratic, erratic behavior, I don't know what to expect. It's the confusion of what am I going to come home to when I open up that door? I want to read some of the attributes of femininity because femininity is not dishonesty. 31:43 It's not being fake. It's not being shame based. I think women and femininity is torn down so much that it feels like femininity and shame are just like best buddies, but they're not. Femininity isn't back biting or gossip or anything like that. Femininity is about radiance. It's about flow, and it's about trusting your gut and having intuition. 32:16 It is about nurturing and patience. Femininity is tough, perseverance strength, bear children, and tolerate pain. Women make fun of men because men get their man colds because women can endure. Those are the attributes of femininity. 32:39 It's not this petty, you know, just obnoxious annoyingness of what women are. Right. And the things that I just listed, our world needs so much more of. We need it so badly. And if women reject their femininity, they'll continue to stay muted or they'll continue to try to become masculine. 33:12 And then we're stuck in the same cycles that we're in. Go ahead, Rachel. I have another question thought for you. As you're kind of talking. And obviously, there is this pushback on, this idea of femininity based off of your past experiences, the things that Brandon just listed off. If you were to sit and let those things fall into your soul, how many of those things do you resonate with as things that are valuable and precious to you and that are part of you? 33:44 Absolutely. I'm on board with all of them. And I actually really appreciate the clarity between the distance between the gossiping and the back biting and all of that versus, like, these are the cores of femininity. I think that's what's missing in the conversation is. Yeah. And I wonder what the price is that you may have to pay when you internally feel and know that all the things that Brandon just read off are a part of your makeup. 34:18 And yet there's this belief that somehow those things must mean what were the words you used that must mean superficial and weak? Like, what's the price that gets paid? The price that gets paid? And I think that's why I've been wrestling with it is that I am not truly developed as a person, that there's something missing within me that I'm negating a part of who I am. The true part of who I am. 34:48 Exactly. And that true part of who you are is trying to be stifled and shut down. And the way that it often gets shut down is through shame. And so now here I am going like, oh, the inside of me knows that I feel these things, that these are things are precious to me. It's that kind of built into my DNA. But I'm associating these things with weakness and instability. So if I try to shut them down, I'm in trouble. If I embrace them, that means that I'm superficial and weak. 35:18 So what I've got myself into is what we call a double bind, where no matter which way I turn, I'm stuck. Unless there's a different way to look at this TranscribeMe8picture, unless there's a different way to view those things inside of me and to learn to embrace those things as necessary as imperative instead of superficial and weak. I think that's easy to say. 35:49 Tyler, we're talking about therapy work here, right? There's reasons. Rachel, I really appreciate what you just said. Like, you may be missing out on some on life, on things that could happen if you were to embrace your femininity. But there's reasons why you're rejecting it, and it's things you've been taught. 36:18 It's probably trauma that you've had. You've learned how to fall into this safe place of probably be being more masculine than you really, truly are. But it's safe there to face some of those fears or traumas or whatever it is that will make it possible for you to open up and really step into more of your femininity. Oh, go ahead, Tyler. 36:49 Can I add to that going Brown? And it's interesting that what you're saying is that here part of how I'm going to learn to embrace my femininity is to actually embody. One of the biggest tools that you would learn if you're going to a therapist is how to practice self compassion, which by nature would fall under the category of feminine. I'm going to have to learn how to practice that nurturing part of myself towards myself. Right. 37:22 Rachel, any last thoughts? Questions? I don't know. I appreciate just the definition. I think I've gotten stuck layered because I think I missed what the true definition is. And when you're not defining something correctly, then it convoluted and confusing. 37:46 Yeah. With one of my women's groups, I would challenge you, Rachel, with one of my women's groups, I just challenged them. I said, hey, just be feminine. Like this week, just whatever it is, and come back and report on that. And they came back. My women's group, it was interesting because a lot of them came back. Like, that was an awesome activity. I loved it. And they talked about different things that they did. 38:16 So one thing about masculinity, masculinity is results oriented, where femininity is experience oriented. So it's much more exponential. And that's why most interior designers are women, because it's the experience of that room. So, like, one woman, she remodeled her bedroom that week. Another woman, she had a really strong feeling in her gut. 38:48 Her intuition was telling her to do something. She followed through with it, and so she felt empowered. I think one woman had amazing sex with her husband. That was, like, connected. And so they came back and it was like, man, stepping into that femininity was a little bit scary, but it was also amazing. I felt alive, and I felt a part of me come to life that I haven't otherwise felt. So it can be little things. 39:19 I think one woman did her hair, and I know that sounds petty, and I know that could trigger that, Rachel, but she felt beautiful. She felt sexy, and she felt it's part of that experience thing. Right. So it's not just about doing your hair and designing a room. It's about showing up intuitive. It's about practicing patience, being receptive, and empathetic. 39:49 All of those things are feminine energy. So, Rachel, it's been awesome having you today. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this topic. Like I say, it's one of my favorite topics. So, man, we need more TranscribeMe9femininity, and we need to accept femininity more in the world. So, Tyler, any last thoughts? Yeah, I just want to make sure that we clarify with you. 40:15 Rachel, I don't know that we actually even finished answering all of your questions today. Do you have any last thoughts? No, I'm just grateful for your time and for pushing me a little bit. It's awesome. Well, I appreciate you coming on and sharing so openly what you shared, because I know that you're definitely not the only person who's going to relate to what you shared. 40:45 So thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. Awesome. If you guys like this episode, then please rate and review. If we triggered anyone else out there and you want to come ask us some more questions, then please go to therapybros.com. Just submit a form there and let us know that you want to come on and ask us some questions. So thanks again, Rachel, and have a good one, guys. We'll see you later. Thanks.