#105: How Do I Balance Showing Empathy And Humility While Maintaining Masculinity?

00:00How do I balance showing empathy and humility, but still keeping my masculinity? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery Podcast with the therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery.00:14Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with real recovery of it. Tyler, I talk about this all the time, and I think it's important for us to kind of flush this out.00:40But before we do, I got to say, I'm really excited for Christmas because of certain someone drew my name. I'm usually not the one who's famous for giving the best gifts in the family. I think you are. And Rex is our brother. Rex is like, I am. But anytime Rex gets your name drawn, then you're pretty happy. Yeah, I think you drew me a couple of years and I got some great gifts, and then a couple of years.01:09I didn't tell you what you hooked me up last year because you had me last year and you gave me a new pair of hiking boots and they were awesome. Good. I'm glad you like them. I'll just let you know that I went a little bit I was Proactive this year, and I'm pretty happy and excited about it. So hopefully it'll be something you want. Well, hey, I hope, you know, you just give me a smile and a good episode on the Real Top Recovery podcast, and that's all I want.01:40All right, man, you got the smile right now. So let's bust out the episode. Yeah, let's get the episode going here. Let's get moving. So today it's just me and you, Brandon. But this is a question that comes all the time through my practice. I'm sure you run into it the same thing. I actually just had a pretty spirited discussion and almost a debate in one of my men's groups this week around this question. And so let me set it up for you.02:09It's this idea that when, say, we're working with a man who has betrayed his wife. On one hand, when they come into recovery, they're flooded with messages like, you need to stay humble. You need to cultivate a soft heart. You need to show Godly sorrow. You need to be able to develop the skill of empathy. And that's hard. That's a hard thing to do when shame is ruling your life. And then on the other side, they're receiving a message that, Tyler, I want to get to the other side.02:40What you're saying is basically like, you know what? Be kind, be humble. Be compliant. Be a good boy. Right? Be a good boy. So now be a good boy, right? Be ridiculously patient. All of those things. And I think that's all really good. That's advice that I speak probably 100 times a week. Sure. And when we're working with our men, at least in my men's groups, we're really highly focused on this idea of strength and masculinity and authenticity and self respect.03:11And sometimes I think there's a mixed message that we as treatment providers send, and it led to a pretty big debate in my group this week. So I want to pose it to you, Brandon, like, Where's the balance between showing humility and empathy and patience and having healthy boundaries and managing self respect when you're the one who's done the betraying? So this is a trick question as we talk about this, Tyler, I think this could be a really important episode because there's no such thing as balance.03:43One actually supports the other, and they help the other work together. But it gets really confusing. And so what happens where a guy who lacks a sense of self and has been living in his shame is all of a sudden told to be a good boy.04:14He goes into this compliance, and usually he'll go into this compliance for a while, like, okay, I won't be sexual. I won't upset my wife. I won't do anything that I think God won't like. So I'll try to be the best that I possibly can. And then what happens, Tyler? Well, I think the problem is that part of it is that shame is still driving everything. And because shame is driving everything, it's not done with authenticity. It's not done with genuineness.04:43And it's a skill set that a lot of people are still trying to learn, and it's kind of awkward and not very pretty. And oftentimes they get criticized for the practice that they're doing. Yeah, it's laced with a lot of failure and shame. Yeah, that's it. And so eventually they crack, and they get really resentful, and they kind of become this like, oh, you know what? Screw you then. I can never please you. I'm going to be bound right now. And I did that with quotation marks.05:15I'm going to tell you who I really am. Now get ready, because here I go. Right? And let's not confuse that for masculinity, because that's not masculinity at all. That's just swinging the pendulum of the shame screen from moving toward your shame to moving against your shame. That's all that is. It has nothing to do with actual empathy and humility one way or the other. Being compliant and showing up weak is not humility, and being a jerk is not masculinity.05:47Right. So this is where people get so confused, because the fact of the matter is, the more grounded I am with myself, the more I know who I am, the more connected to God that I am, the easier it is for me to show up as a patient, humble, kind, empathetic man, and in my strength and in my confidence, show up in that place.06:16Now, your group is having this debate say more about the debate. Like, what are they saying? Okay, let me give you an example, and I'll kind of change some of the details here, but I'll just give you a hypothetical. All right. But it would still get the same principles. Let's say I have a man who has betrayed his wife, and she is having a moment where she's kind of gone into that fear trauma response.06:42And she comes to him and she asks him a few questions, and he answers the questions. But then the questions keep coming and they start getting into that kind of, like, detailed, health kind of question. Yeah. And then he pushes back a little bit and says, I'm not sure this is going to take us anywhere good. Do we want to take a break? And she says, no, I deserve to know the answers. And then he kind of keeps answering, but then he just finally gets that point you're talking about and going like, this is stupid. Like,I'm not going to do this anymore.07:10And then she might even go even as far as to criticize him or call him a name or even do something physical, like throw something out. Like, you addict. You this. Yeah, whatever. So the debate was this is, say, several members of my group. Look at it from the standpoint of, well, I'm the one who totally messed up. I can see her trauma.07:34She just needs some space, and I can hold that the least I can do for her because of the pain that I've caused her. And then the other parts of my group are saying, like, no, at a certain point, you need to end the conversation. It's not okay to be criticized. It's not okay to be called names. It's not okay to be having something thrown at you. And you're not doing any service for yourself or your wife if you stay at that point, yeah. You need to stand up for yourself.08:02At a certain point, you need to stand up for yourself in my group. But do both sides have truth to them? Well, I would definitely lean toward one side over the other with that, but it really depends on the energy in which it's done. The tone. So I would lean toward have your boundaries. You don't have to sacrifice yourself and take on abuse and take on all kinds of things because you've done bad things.08:35In fact, that doesn't build trust, because now you're not showing up as an authentic, honest human being. You're showing up as somebody who's willing to roll over and really manipulate the situation because you're not honest. But if you're going to show up and have those boundaries and say, like, hey, I can't stay here. If you're going to throw things at me, I'm going to have to leave. But I get why you want to throw things at me. Like, I get why you're pissed off.09:05I understand why you're triggered right now, and I'd love to talk to you about your triggers, but if you're going to call me names and throw things at me, I won't be able to stay in that conversation. But I'm happy to listen. Right. So it's the tone, but you can't have that type of empathy. Empathy cannot exist without boundaries, where that compliant, weak side of things is such a farce because you are not loving your spouse by just being Mr.09:42Nice Guy, you're not loving your spouse. In fact, you're making it impossible for you to actually be strong enough to empathize with her. The goal is connection. The goal is empathy. Again, back to what we said before. If I have those boundaries with the tone of, you know what, your pain and your emotions and stuff are stupid and crazy and you'll never change and you're horrible, and therefore I'm right, because look how crazy you are.10:18I'm not being empathetic either. Right. Do you see it, Tyler? Can you see that space of strength as a man that we can show up as to be both boundaries and empathetic at the same time? Yeah. Brandon, I think where you're going is exactly why we wanted to do the episode. I want to figure out how to get there, because I would agree with you that I say this all the time to some of my clients.10:46I say, look, you're not actually doing your partner a favor. If you stay and perpetuate the drama that's going on, you're actually harming yourself and you're allowing her to harm herself at that point. Because one of the Buddhist premises is that we're all so interconnected that you can't do harm to yourself or someone else without doing harm reciprocally toyourself or someone else. Right.11:16I love that anytime that the drama triangle is present, it's really just not going to be effective for us to operate inside that drama either way. Never. But the hard thing with that is and I think this is where, like, when shame is in the mix is that shame takes the word boundaries, and it approaches the boundaries like building a brick wall with harshness, the opposite of boundaries, which is not healthy boundaries.11:43Empathy, which, by the way, is taught by a lot of therapists and a lot of platforms, I got to say. Yeah, right. Well, because that's the easy way to teach it, because when you're not used to having set any boundaries, like anything feels foreign, and it's going to be messy and ugly, too. And so you start practicing and you don't quite get it right, and you swing all the way to that other end. Yeah. Sometimes it looks harsh and rigid, but the truth is that empathy is the source of the best boundaries. Yes.12:12But in order to get there, I also have to be able to deal with my shame. On one hand, Glean pulled a piece of truth out of this. On the other side, Brennan, the guy who says, Well, I've totally screwed up and I deserve as much punishment as, like, there's nothing she could do that could ever catch up to what I've done to her. Okay. There's a piece of truth in that. I think that's garbage in a lot of ways. Well, I actually think there's some truth in it, too.12:42I've done some things in my relationship that I don't think my wife could ever match. She probably could. She won't, though. But with that. Okay, so is penitent the way is to beat yourself down the way. Sorry, I'm cutting down. That's the question, Brandon. This is where I think we get mixed up, is if you say that there's going to be a listener right here listening to us right now going like, oh, yeah, no longer do I have to be sorry for this anymore.13:12In the middle is where there should be some truth, which is, hey, I've made some mistakes. I can own those mistakes. I feel terrible about those mistakes. I want to change. I want to get better. I wish I could repair it, and I can't stay in that penitent place for the rest of my life, or else that won't serve you or our marriage either. Hang on. Your example here, there's this part of it that's just, like, bothering me, and it's this.13:39In order for me to be sorry, I then have to give up my truths. I then have to be a doormat. I think that's what most of the guys that you see who nailed the quote, humility, that's how they feel. That's not being vulnerable, that's being okay. I'm sorry. So now tell me what I am and what I have to do in order to make things okay, rather than being a vulnerable man who steps up and says, I'm sorry, and I'm going to be honest with you about who I am and where I'm at, but I am sorry.14:16And you can feel bad. You can feel regret, you can feel remorse and still have your masculinity at the same time. Those things coexist. They can coexist. You can also attempt the repairs where possible, even though a lot of the times this irreparable damage that we cause and still keep your masculine, you won't do the repair work unless you have that strength.14:47You can't. You'll do more damage by being and when you say penitent by being this, I'm so sorry, man. So therefore I have no idea who the heck I am. You'll do a lot more damage. Okay, Tyler, we get the question all the time. How do I get into your groups and how do I get the therapy that I need?15:13We frequently have groups starting in an online fashion so you can get help wherever you are in the world. You can find a group that will help you with the things that we talk about. Brandon, how do they find you? Liftforrecovery.com. You can get into my Lyft group. It's a full, comprehensive group program, both for betrayal, trauma, and sex addiction. And it's awesome. So I'd love to have you there. What about you, Tyler? We run what's called the Foundations of Recovery Group, which is for both betrayal, trauma, and addiction as well, all online.15:43And it covers the basics of recovery, shame, resiliency, mindfulness, a toolbox helping to cope with healing and also different kinds of communication. And you can find that@lovestrong.com. So there's options. There's no excuse. Now, if you are ready to work recovery, you can come work with me or you can come work with Tyler and you'll get the help you need at either one of our programs. So come and join us@lovestrong.com or Liftforrecovery.com.16:20Yeah, but Tyler, I think it's so funny as we talk back and forth on this, and I'm sure our listeners can hear in no way are we saying you then go to jerk mode where I have no feelings. I got a really awesome call from a friend of mine this week and he lacked boundaries in his relationship for a long time.16:44And then he got some mentoring and things that told him, look, you are codependent with her. You be happy independent of her and not care much about her. She can deal with her own happiness, whatever. And you just tell her everything's perfect and you're dealing with you. That's it. And so he did that. And where do you think it led him? He's probably alone right now. Yeah, it led him down that road.17:17He went to her and said, I'm good, I don't need you. I'm good on my own. But what he did is he went from being in a codependent relationship to an independent relationship and didn't sit in that space of interdependency of I'm connected to you. I care about your feelings. I love you, but I do stand on my own 2ft at the same time, I feel with you, I empathize with you.17:44That's what empathy is. I feel with you. And what I feel with you does influence me in my life and who I am. And I don't need to consume you for my self worth. I don't need to consume you to know that I'm okay. And so I'm very connected and I'm very disconnected at the same time. And that's healthy attachment right there. And that's where real masculinity can exist and real femininity on the other end can exist as well.18:19Yeah, I'm thinking as you're talking, Brandon, like, this is kind of an out there example. But I remember one time a guy came in to group, this was several years ago. And he said, all right, fellas, I got a new bottom line. And we're like, okay, well, what's your bottom line? He's like, I no longer pee standing up. And I said, what? And he's like, yeah, I was talking to my wife and it triggers her that I touch my penis when I stand up to pee, I'm going to pee sitting down.18:46Now, again, on the one hand, I love the dude for going like, well, I really want to support my wife, but there's something inside of that. And I hope our listeners can hear that that isn't quite healthy. Right. And he would have been better off if he would have been able to hold the space that he needed to by hearing his wife's pain, hearing that she was triggered. Yes. And validating that she was hurting and understanding that this was a reallyhard process for her and then saying to her, I don't think you have to worry about it.19:18When I go to the bathroom, I'm going to continue to stand up when I pee. This is a great metaphor, this story. It reminds me of some of the emails that we get when we talk about how we're all sexually attracted to multiple people. Right. Some of the feedback that we've gotten is how dare you say that? Why would you ever say that on a podcast like this here's?19:46The reason is because we got to live in reality rather than you can go to twelve step meetings and group and say shut off your sexuality, shut it off, shut it off, shut it off. And all you're doing, if you really try to shut it off, is feeding it to come out in all kinds of ways that you don't want it to come out. Right. But the space of. Okay, the reality is that's true.20:13We're sexually attracted to people with my partner, my spouse. Am I strong enough to be honest with them, even if it hurts them, even if there's pain there? Am I strong enough to manage my own self and not have to go lust and go off and do all this destructive behaviors in my life? And am I strong enough to be honest in my relationship and empathetic to the pain that they have?20:42Right? So that's what I'm talking about, this space of interdependency in a relationship. I can be honest with you. I can understand how me being sexually attracted to other women would affect you and how that would be hard for you. And I'm going to be honest with you at the same time. Therefore, I can build trust with you. I can build real trust with you. And if we build trust together, the next result of that is some pretty deep intimacy and some good connection.21:15And that's awesome. That's what we're going for, right? But I see it all the time where we reject masculinity. We are scared of it. Tyler, if you can speak to this little I've been in circumstances with you where I've seen this. In my experience, there's an important part of masculinity that lives on the edge.21:47And this edge feels dangerous both to the man, the masculine, and to the feminine. And the edge is masculine enough to own that edge, to live there, then it breeds safety and connection to the feminine. If he won't live on that edge at all and he's too scared to go out there, it leads to unsafety with the feminine and disconnection.22:19What do you think about what I'm saying. Yeah. I refer to it as playing small, where when I see a man in recovery who refuses to accept the truth that he is a force for good, but he's a work in progress, that he has immeasurable value. And so he plays small and he calls it humility. Yes. That actually doesn't serve the big purpose in the short term.22:49It feels comfortable. It feels comfortable for both, because now the guy in shame can take his punishment and the betrayed partner can feel safer because she sees, like this, quote, humility. And that works for a short period of time. But at a certain point, if we're looking safer, though. Yeah. If we're looking at the big picture, the long term. And I've talked to several women who end up in this space after that plays out for a while. They'll hit a wall in their relationship where she'll start to actually disrespect him and resent him because he's weak.23:22Yes. And what she's really wanting is she's wanting an equal partner. She's wanting someone that she can come to. I'll tell you, it's like early in our marriage, this happened all the time. My wife would come to me and she'd say things, and we get into these disagreements. Eventually they'd turn into these little small arguments. And at that point, I would just kind of like, roll over and be like, I don't want to fight with you. Yeah, you're right. Whatever this and that. And the other. And my wife would actually come to me after we did that a few times. And she'd say, Tyler, I just want somebody to fight with me, knowing your life.23:59Yeah, I know what she was really saying was she didn't want me to fight with her. She didn't want me to be a jerk. She didn't want me to. But what she wanted was she wanted actually somebody to be with standing on 2ft a little bit. She doesn't want to be my probation officer. She doesn't want to be my mom, even though she might feel safe, because I'm always like, oh, I'm so bad. I'll do whatever you want. What she really wants is and I think this is true for most of the women that I work with.24:22They want to be married to a man who is understanding of the principles that he needs to live by. And most of them overlap with honesty, humility, transparency, strength, character, all of that stuff. And they want a guy who's living those principles. And so at a certain point, you can't stay at the bottom of the barrel. In order to manage everyone else's feelings, you have to step into your full, true strength as a person, as a man.24:52Listen to Tyler. I want to just say a little side note. The reason why you stay at the bottom of the barrel and you don't step into your full strength as a man is because you're scared of the feminine. You're scared of your partner. You're scared of your wife. So if you're showing up scared, how much safety are you going to actually create in that relationship? Exactly where do you have the opportunity to step in and offer strength?25:22In all reality, you've been basically forcing your wife to be God for you and give you the answer that you're enough. Yes. She doesn't want that long term. She can't answer that question anyway. She was never given that answer to give to you. Yeah. This idea of strength and danger a little bit. You're talking about Brandon. And I was listening to a podcast by Jordan Peterson this week, and he had a really cool definition for meekness that I hadn't heard before. And it was something like this.25:50He said, by the way, Meekness is one of the coveted traits that I want more than anything. I want meekness. But he described it differently. Like, we think of like, oh, he gets walked on. He's a doormat. He's just that. And the other and Jordan Peterson said, a man who is Meek is a man who is capable of doing massive damage and chooses not to. Interesting. And the idea behind that is that he knows he can be dangerous.26:19He knows that inside that danger, there's actual power, and there's actually some goodness that comes with that danger. And then he chooses to harness it in a way that it makes the lives of other people around him better instead of self serving. Yes. And that's what I think we're getting at here, is in order to step into that real understanding of who we are with our strength in a state of that definition of meekness, we have to be doing the work to become resilient to the shame, which would otherwise either turn us into toxic masculinity or into yes men.26:57Yes. But Tyler, I love what you're saying. We're talking about this danger. I think our sexuality is dangerous. Our need for adventure, our need for a battle, to fight, to feel a sense of purpose, to really experience those types of things, our need for love and intimacy, to experience those type of things, it requires stepping on that edge.27:31It requires vulnerability. So a man who's always trying not to be vulnerable is a man who's living a deathless death. A man who is not living. He's not alive. There's not vibrance there. And so the feminine is not attracted to that. And there's this conundrum that a lot of the guys, mid 40s, early 40s, late 30s, that I work with are in. And it's this conundrum.28:00They've gotten themselves in a pattern in their relationship where they have been a yes man, they have been Mr. Nice Guy. They've looked to their wife to tell them who they are, and they've done it for so long. Now that there's a lot of just a lot of lack of intimacy, passion, connection in their relationships.28:27There's just a lot of resentment, disconnection but here's the conundrum is, at this point in life, we've done this now for 15 years, 20 years. If I step up and step into my honest truth with you, the wife is now she's not happy with the masculinity that she's gotten in the relationship, but she's also used to it now.28:55And so when he steps up and he starts to be honest, it really triggers her. It's scary for her. Oh, big, right. She wants to put them back into that box, but she doesn't want to, but she wants to. Well, part of that is because at least in the realm of work that we do, that dangerous side has actually caused a whole bunch of pain in the past. Yeah, but that dangerous side that came out sideways. Yeah, well, it came out.29:22But I think that's what you're getting at, though, is that what I'm saying is there's still room to be compassionate to that wife who's having a hard time with that transition because first hand, the danger that actually comes with those powers. And I think what you're saying, Brandon, is that really it takes both. I was listening to a researcher from Stanford this week talking about long term relationships and intimacy.29:53And then he also does research on cheating and infidelity and things. And he said the research is really interesting because for women who are looking for a short term relationship, they truly do like the bad boy. They like the dangerous guy, the guy on the Harley. They like the guy who's taking risks, he said. But when you actually assess women who are looking for the long term relationship, they actually let go of some of those dangerous things, and they look for things more like patience and provision and kindness.30:26And that's really what keeps the long term in play here. And I think as you're talking, I'm thinking that's really what this work is about is figuring out how to understand the danger, embrace the danger, and then be able to wrap that danger with that set of principles that goes with the other side that can be long term kindness, empathy, compassion.30:52And I still know who I am and integrity and honesty and all those other things have once the danger and the adventure and all that stuff, purpose, passion, has direction, then it becomes a blessing in the lives of your wife and the lives of your children, the lives of people around you. But, Tyler,here's the fear.31:17What if I say, okay, I've rejected myself most of my life to comply with my spouse, to comply with my Church, to comply with my therapist and my groups. I've been going to that have all been telling me that you're dangerous and you're bad. Just be good. Just be good. So what if I say, okay, I'm done with that. And I'm like, I'm just going to go be me.31:46I'm going to go find out who I really am. So we're talking, like, midlife crisis time, right? What if I find out that I don't want to be married? What if I find out that I don't want to be a dad? What if I find all those things out? What if I go be dangerous, so to speak, and that's what comes up and comes out for me?32:14Well, again, there's a difference in being just dangerous and selfish. And I think what you're describing, Brandon, is I would challenge any man that goes into that realm to say, okay, you're tapping into one part of your masculinity, but what about the other parts that are inevitably there as well? Things like purpose and passion and integrity and all those things. And so I work with my client on those things first. But if he under the end of the day goes, that's exactly who I am and that's who I'm going to be.32:44Well, I hate to say this, but he should be as honest with that as he possibly can so that the people around him can make decisions accordingly, because it's not fair for him to pretend that he's not that. I think, Tyler, it's easy for you and I to say because honestly, I can just totally, honestly say that. I know I was made to be a husband and a father, like, tops of my list to my core. It's my purpose more than anything.33:15And I know you're the same way. So I think it's easy for us to say because if we go out and we get dangerous and we look at who we really are, I already have. And the fact of the matter is, this is who I am. I'm fighting for my family. That's what it's all about. But I heard Nick Saban talking once, and he was like, I have all this success, and I had to do that.33:40I had to sacrifice my family and really being a father to my kids in order to do everything that I've done. We look at that and it's like, well, our first response is, he shouldn't have. But I would argue that God wants us to fulfill our purpose more than anything and for us to wrestle there with God to figure out what is that purpose.34:09We're not doing our wives a favor if we're hanging around playing the part, pretending. If we got this part of us that's saying that's not who you are. It's a challenge. Discussion. The challenge to that, Brandon, is that when you're coming from the deep hole of shame, sometimes you're not fully in touch with all the parts of yourself either. So to make those decisions is not smart in that place.34:38Yeah, I wouldn't make those decisions from a place of fear, shame, doubt, whatever it is, or decisions or, like, screw you attitude. Yeah, not that either. It's really the man's equivalent of what I call the surrender moment when I'm talking with women about whether they should stay or go in their relationship and they come to this place of peace and understanding and almost like a sure knowledge of, like, oh, that's who I am. So if, like, Nick Saban goes between him and God, and God is like, you're supposed to be the best College coach of all time, and that's the reason you're on the Earth.35:11Well, then, Dang it. It's a tragedy that he didn't learn that sooner, and he's going to have a massive wake of destruction in his family. But at the end of the day, he's living according to what that piece would be if that were the case. I would say that oftentimes God might not actually say that to him. Who knows? I know I read Shoe Dog, Phil Knight story, the Nike guy. That book was crazy because at the end of the book, the last chapter is just talking about all of the mistakes he made with his family and how much he's sad about that.35:42And yet, did God put him on the did he create a lot? Yeah, he created a lot. He's basically altered the whole he's had an impact, literally, on the entire world. I don't know if it's for good or not, and we could argue that, but Luckily, Tyler, I mean, it's usually not one or the other. In order to fulfill my purpose, I have to sacrifice my family.36:04But the point we're making, I think, is on that edge of honesty and masculinity is to take it that far, to wrestle with God, to figure out who am I truly? What am I choosing into Where's my agency here rather than this shame based, I don't know who I am. Compliance, compassion, who lacks masculinity can't create safety in his relationships.36:34To be willing to go to that edge, to really feel that vulnerability is important. I think you're right. And that's the pinch point for so many couples that we work with is that I hope whoever's listening to this understands that what we really want is a man to grow fully into his true identity as a man of God. And in order to do that, he will have to come to peace with some of the dangerous parts of himself. And he'll have to embrace some of those parts, and he might even get some other purposes that he's scared of or that his wife doesn't like.37:05And he's got to embrace those things. And in the long term, that's what we want is we want to be in a relationship with somebody who is living their full potential and their full passion and who happens to also overlap enough with our direction. And if we're both living with integrity, then that's where the deeper level of intimacy and connection and loyalty and love and trust really come into their own. Yeah.37:34I just think, Tyler, why we've had this discussion, and I love how it got brought up in your group, and we've kind of taken it here. But I think this is a huge missing link. When we talk about models of treatment and recovery, I hear so many stories of treatment programs, models, therapists, even certain twelve step groups, Church groups that do the opposite work of what we've talked about today because it's the safe of God righteous, humble thing to do.38:21The tricky part, Tyler, is it looks good. It looks like this is the good thing to do. Yet it causes destruction because it's fear based. It's shame based. It creates more fear. It creates more shame. Yeah. Okay. So just so I have it in Crystal clear language, so my listeners and I could even maybe share this clip with my group. I'm going to ask you some questions. I just want yes or nos. Okay. I'll try to keep it at a yes or no.38:47You know me. Yeah. Yes or no. That's all you get is a yes or no. Okay. As a man, should I show up with patience and empathy for my wife? Yes. As a man, should I be sensitive to my wife's feelings and try to hold space for her? Yes. As a man, should I own the things that I've done wrong? Yes. As aman, should I keep myself, respect and hold healthy boundaries?39:17Yes. As a man, should I strive for an understanding of who I am in God's eyes and live accordingly? Yes. There you go. Okay. In reference to the question that we started with today, the answer isn't either or it's all of the above. Yeah. Your group. Sorry, guys. If you listen to this, you'll be arguing forever because you're both right and you both probably misunderstand it a little bit.39:47What you're arguing for. This is why masculinity is so important and just as important as the masculine side. As the feminine side. And we haven't talked about that today as much. And I'd love to have another conversation with you, Tyler, about how that femininity side fits into this equation, because it's the other half of it. It's really important as well. And when the masculine lives on the edge, really stands in his strength, knows who he is, and the feminine comes in with all of her glory and beauty.40:24That's where recovery is. That's what we all want. So maybe we can have another discussion, Tyler, and talk about the other side next time. That'd be great. All right. I know that this episode is probably going to get some people feeling all sorts of different ways and have all sorts of other questions. So if you have questions and you want to come on the show, go to real talk recovery.com or therapybrothers.com and sign up to be a caller or even submit a question in writing.40:53And if you've listened to this podcast and you found something to be helpful to you and you know it'd be helpful with somebody else, please share it. All right, guys, have a good day.