00:00How do we navigate a mixed faith marriage and betrayal trauma at the same time? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:33All right, B, this is going to be a good one today, as usual. We always say that. So it will be a good one, though. Yeah. I think faith is a big topic, especially when we're inside of a marriage.00:49So this is going to be really good. Absolutely. Before we jump into it, though, we've been talking about a women's conference coming up in March. The countdown is officially on. It's on, and people are signing up. So come join us. It's our Radiant Dawn conference. It's the end of March, March 24, Southern Utah. It's $1,000 for the first 15 that sign up. So you want to get on it and get on it fast.01:20In fact, by the time this is released, maybe that first 15 is already sold out, but there are a few spots left at that price. The other price is $1,500 for the normal price. But this is the kind of thing where you hear a lot about different conferences and things. If you want a conference where you're going to do a lot of experience and less sitting in front of a TV screen with slides, this is the one. This is going to be active. This is going to go after your heart.01:49This is going to be healing to your heart. And it's also directed towards a relationship and authentic relationship with God. I mean, it's spirituality. It's Christian based. I'm really excited because me, too. I'm pumped about it. Our men's are treated with spiritual and I mean, no offense to the men, but get a bunch of women together and work on spirituality and my goodness, I'm excited for it. Me, too. I'm really excited. Yeah.02:17So anyways, rising, no radioconference.com. All right. So, Sarah, welcome to the show. So to start, just give us a little bit of background, tell us what's going on with you, and then ask your question. Yeah. So back in August, my husband disclosed to me that he'd been using porn for our entire marriage. We've been married for almost ten years.02:46And that was something that we talked about before marriage. And he said, oh, yeah, I used it as a kid, but I'm clean. I got clean and I am clean. We talked about it several times. I remember two specific instances asking him point blank, are you using porn right now in our marriage? And he denied. So that was a pretty big shock. So then he disclosed that. Then he disclosed a little bit later some financial dishonesty.03:19And then more recently, he kind of disclosed that he has had a pretty big faith shift to faith transition as well, which also I know maybe it's not fair tosay that it's a betrayal but we have been talking like faith was a big part of our foundation of our marriage. We've talked about face things and face transitions for the last six years. And I found out kind of through a letter that he had written to he had sent a letter to his friend.03:49And I found this letter and I kind of asked him about he's like, oh, no, it's not. And he was really vulnerable with this friend, and it wasn't a close friend. Right. But it was like a faith transitioner friend. Right. So that kind of felt really hard. So that's kind of where we're at is we're trying to navigate, like a new mixed faith marriage as well as all of the betrayal. How many kids do you guys have?04:18So you're feeling like he's kind of confiding and talking to other people about really important things, spiritual things, and avoiding talking to you about it? Yeah. The time now he has opened up now that it's all out there in the open. So he is talking to me about it, but yeah.04:44Okay. So basically, if I'm hearing you right, things have kind of been this way, but when DDay happened, there's been this cascade of other things that have all kind of like lumped themselves together. So you've got the betrayal trauma, you've got the confusion over, like, the difference between your own religion or spirituality. And it's just kind of this, like, soup that you're swimming in and saying, how do I navigate all of this?05:09Yeah, there's a lot there, if you don't mind me asking. I know I'm not supposed to ask this, but about how old are you guys? He's 31 and I'm 29 years old. Okay. Do you know why? Probably because I look like I'm ten or because that's the typical profile that you guys have when this all comes out.05:37Well, yeah. I mean, DDay and coming out with the addiction and things about ten years in, I'd say, is pretty common. It's different for everybody. But faith transition stuff really starts to amp up in your 30s usually. And they look at it less is like faith crisis and almost more like a stage of development in terms of spirituality.06:09So it's no wonder to me that this is starting to come up in your marriage some. And it's interesting to watch couples navigate it. And now you throw that in with betrayal, trauma, and there's a crack in the foundation of the relationship because trust isn't really solid and maybe it's better now than it was, but it's not really solid.06:37So it's hard to navigate something like that that's so important and not have that safety and that trust underneath. Is that right, Sarah? Yeah. So I think we do have some answers as to how to navigate it and some things that you guys really can do. So that's the good news. Yeah, for sure. So, Sarah, I have another question for you.07:03Just so that I understand your husband, is he in a different faith than you are, or is he just in a different place in his spiritual journey? Yeah, just a different place in his spiritual journey. Okay. So it's like basically this idea of call it a crisis of faith or something that's being navigated, but it's not like you're coming together from two different denominations and saying, hey, we need the kids to go to Church at this place or this place or this is how we're going to raise the kids, all of that stuff. Yeah.07:32This is an unexpected we came together, we're of the same faith tradition.We have been on the same page as far as faith for a long time. So was the expectation kind of like we're going to raise our family in this space, like we're in this, this is what we're doing, and then all of a sudden things are changing. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Brandon. I was just going to ask Sarah how that makes you feel. Like, I know betrayal, trauma. I know the feelings there.08:02Are there any different feelings with the faith stuff that come up for you? Yeah, they're similar. I would say this is harder, more so honestly to navigate. But, yeah, a lot of the frustration. I've done a lot of research. I have a lot of friends that have gone through faith shifts. Right. So I understand like stages of faith, and I understand adult development.08:33I've read a lot of books, listen to a lot of podcasts and a lot of studying. But yeah, it's hard to navigate when it's your husband. Yeah. Is it fear, is it sadness? Is it maybe a cocktail of those things coming up? Yeah, probably some betrayal as well. Right. Like you had certain expectations and you thought you were sold a bill of goods and you're getting something very different. Right? Yeah.09:01Well, and that's part of it, too, is like he says that he hasn't really believed in any traditional sense of he says, well, I believe in a higher power, but he says that he hasn't believed the way that we have traditionally believed for the last two years, which also kind of feels like a betrayal because he's been acting like he has. Right. Putting on that front, I think we see this a lot.09:30Brennan and I both see this as faith going people. They tend to have to go through their own journeys of really coming to the conclusion of what they actually believe and agree with. And sometimes you've been raised in such a way that you just go through the motions for so long that it really does feel like a betrayal when in reality I mean, this sounds weird, but in reality, having him be honest with you now about this faith stuff is probably a step in the right direction compared to where it would have been if you would have stayed just going through the motions.10:03Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. That's a hard thing. So, Sarah, you'd rather have him be honest than compliance. Right. Yet his honesty brings up her feelings and this pain. Right. And there's real opportunity here. The same thing happens with betrayal, trauma and sex addiction. There's real opportunity to galvanize you guys and to strengthen your relationship because of these things.10:37Or this could destroy your relationship and it's going to push it to either go one direction or another. But it depends on something if you want it to get good because of these challenges. There's a critical piece that it depends upon.11:00And what that is, is trust is if you're showing up authentic and with integrity in the relationship, he's showing up authentic and honest, even when it's hard, then you'll build trust over time and you can navigate who you are as individuals and be connected enough as a couple. And it can really create a relationship that is awesome for figuring life out.11:31Right. But if that trust isn't there, then what happens? Yeah. I mean, the relationship disintegrates. We don't trust each other. I don't have the faith that he's being authentic. It's fear. Yeah. So, Brandon, I got a question, because this is like a double whammy then with what you're just saying isthat this is an opportunity to join if there's trust.11:59But then you add in the betrayal trauma piece of it, which just totally, erodes trust. Yes. So where do you start and how do you try to tackle this stuff? Well, the word DDay is interesting because what happened on D Day, things were blown to smithereens. Right. That's actually the start to rebuilding the trust process. D days when things are blown to Smithereen. Right.12:31Betrayal destroys trust. That's true. But there's work to do afterwards. If you're staying married and you're in a relationship still and you both want to be in that relationship, then you can do this work that actually builds trust far beyond how the trust was even before. The thing about it is the betrayal didn't happen on DDay.12:58The pain came on DDay, but all of the betrayal trauma stuff was already happening. What am I saying? What I'm saying is you can absolutely take that horrible, painful thing, whether it's faith crisis, whether it's betrayal, trauma and work together and do the right kind of work to feel very connected and safe and just happy in your relationship.13:27That's possible. Tyler, is that true? Well, we wouldn't be doing this work if we didn't both see and know and believe that it was true. Right. I just look at it from a place like Sarah where she's out or someone listening to this right now going, well, when Brandon is saying trust is the way to get through this faith crisis, but I can't have trust because this thing blew up in my face. What I'm getting at is that maybe the starting point has to back up a little bit to getting back to what does it take to start reestablishing trust?13:56Yes, absolutely. And that's really what I'm saying, too. It's like, okay, if you're dealing with a big thing like a faith crisis right now, Sarah, and that trust isn't established, it's really kind of wobbly a little bit, then that faith crisis is going to turn into drama. It's going to turn into fear cycles, resentments, assumptions, like all of those things that really hurt a relationship.14:25And so, Tyler, I totally agree with you. The backup here is to not fix the issue with the faith crisis. The backup here is to make sure that, Sarah, you and your husband are individuals first and foremost, who can show up authentic and honest and empathetic with each other to make sure that you have the strength to do that. Does that make sense? Yes.14:54Sarah, I guess just since all of this is sort of broken loose for you, how open are you guys with your communication right now? I mean, I feel that we're really open. I'm hoping that he's being open with me. If he was pretty open. We were talking a lot talking very often. Do you get the sense that he's trying to show up doing some of the principal things that we would coach in recovery, like being transparent and being committed to whatever changes he's trying to make?15:26Is there a feeling or an essence that that's actually happening? Yeah, I think so. Okay. So if that's happening, then what Brandon was saying applies here where it's like, okay, it's probably small and not where you want it to be, but there is enough room to at least have some of the discussions that would go along with this idea of well, and the thing about it is I seen you nod your head, Sarah. Yes. It sounds like he's showing up as a different man than he was when he was hiding a bunch of things, right?15:58Yeah. But trust isn't like, oh, good. Now he's a guy with integrity. You got trust. It's this process. Right? Right. And so now you're in the middle of this process where you're kind of like, I hope that he's a trustworthy dude. Like, I hope that. And now you take the faith stuff, and this is where it's really cool because you can take something like faith, something very deep and hard, and you can test trust out a little bit with this thing.16:27And so the story about writing the letter to the friend is an interesting one. And I'm curious, what was his explanation to you about why he did that that way? It was for me. And he was like, I wanted his feedback on basically how to make it better or more convincing or whatever. I see. But your betrayal in that felt like you're saying things to him that I've never known, right?16:58Yeah. And I mean, this is a guy he was roommates with for a semester, and he talked about his porn and stuff in there, which is, I don't care. But, yeah, just very vulnerable with a person that I felt like he didn't have a super close relationship with. But because they both share the same faith crisis or whatever, that made him feel like he could be more vulnerable with him than he could be with me. Right.17:26So the breakdown in trust was you're opening up and showing somebody else who you are, and you're deceiving me because you're not showing me who you really are. Yeah. And I felt like he wasn't super honest about the letter. I found it on the computer, and I asked him about it. He's like, oh. And so he would say that he wasn't dishonest. He's like, well, the letter really wasn't ready.17:54It wasn't really ready for you yet, but it was a finished letter at that point. Maybe it wasn't how he wanted to send it to me. So that might be true, Sarah. It might be like, hey, I'm trying to work through this so that I can go to Sarah and really have this conversation. But here's another question for you. Is when the betrayal happened with this thing, was he defensive or was he empathetic and understanding as to why this would feel like betrayal to you?18:25I think he did his best to be empathetic. You saw the effort. Yeah, I think it was just said, I didn't feel empathy. I didn't feel empathy. But I saw him try. Yeah. Which I think is probably what she was also saying was, if she's between the lines on our answer, the answer was he was trying.18:55Yeah. Okay. Hey, Tyler, we get the question all the time. How do I get into your groups and how do I get the therapy that I need? We frequently have group starting in an online fashion, so you can get help wherever you are in the world. You can find a group that will help you with the things that we talk about. Brandon, how do they find you? Lyftforrecovery.com you can get into my Lyft group. It's a full, comprehensive group program, both for betrayal, trauma and sex addiction.19:26And it's awesome. So I'd love to have you there. What about you, Tyler? We run what's called the Foundations of Recovery Group, which is for both betrayal, trauma and addiction as well, all online. And it covers the basics of recovery, shame, resiliency, mindfulness, a toolbox helping to cope with healing and also different kinds of communication. And you can find that@lovestrong.com. So there's options. There's no excuse.19:52Now, if you are ready to work recovery, you can come work with me, or youcan come work with Tyler and you'll get the help you need at either one of our programs. So come and join us@lovestrong.com or Liftforrecovery.com, which is better than not trying. Empathy. What Tyler and I see all the time are these guys that just get so defensive and Gaslight and do all kinds of crap to their spouse with these vulnerable things.20:26So he's like, kind of destroying trust at the same time trying to build it. Right. Which leaves you in this weird place of, like, gosh, I'm sure, Sarah, you want to be safe for him to navigate this for himself, correct? Right. Yeah. And that's part of it, too, is I've always felt safe to open up and share with him. And so to feel like the entirety of our marriage, he hasn't felt safe with me, made me feel pretty sad.20:58Yes. But when you address that with him, what was the discussion like? He talks about his own trauma, and he's like, I've never felt safe with anyone. I've never opened up with anyone. Okay. Usually that's the case is that we talk about trust, especially with betrayal, trauma. We talk about it one way, which is the betrayed to the betrayer or whatever. But it's actually a two way street. And a lot of the times, the lack of trust on the other side is really that I just don't trust anyone.21:30And it sounds backwards, but because you're his wife and the one who should be closest to him, in some ways, the fear and vulnerability feels bigger because there's more consequence if you were to reject who he is. So it likely wasn't personal towards you as much as it was, and is an issue that he's got to be working on to figure out how to break through that fear and step a little bit further into that vulnerability, which it sounds like he was in the process of trying to figure out and do.21:58This is where it's hard to know, because I've seen some of the safest most like just secure attachment, healthy partners be accused of being horribly unsafe and terrible and awful and all these things because of their spouse's trauma that happened long before they were ever married. And so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. No matter what they do, they're not safe to their partner.22:27I've seen that. But usually it's some combination. It's also the partner isn't safe. She's really defensive or scared or controlling or blaming. All those things happen on top of his trauma. Right. And then sometimes it's true that the partner just isn't safe where it's like, look, I want to be an authentic, honest person, but if I do any little thing this is going to blow up to, it's going to go nuclear here.22:59And so this is really where therapy helps, I believe, where a good, solid therapist can reflect back and identify things like, look, Sarah, you're not safe for him in these ways, right? Or look, husband of yours, she's a very safe person. But you're looking at her like you're looking at your mother or whoever. I'm just making stuff up to kind of differentiate those things out, because then you start to see where the work needs to be done in terms of the trust.23:34So it sounds like you say he's doing the best that he can. Yeah. And at this rate, are you going to be working at the best that he can forever? Is that what it feels like? Yeah. Kind of like we're both doing our own work with our own therapist. We're in couples counseling. We're doing all that we can. But it does feel pretty overwhelming.24:03Brandon, I want to just ask this again, like thinking in some tangible ways, because I liked how you painted the picture and you said there's an opportunity here for a re establishment of not just trust but connection, even if there's this, like, difference in faith. And I think most people, when they hear crisis of faith, that might be one of the scariest things that anybody hears. I guess this is kind of going on with what Sarah's question was.24:31But what would be some of the tangible things that you'd want present for that process of navigating this crisis of faith? That's an excellent question. Let's just say the groundwork is that safety that we talk about, right where let's say I'm struggling with something with God, and I'd really like to open up and talk to somebody about it.25:00So I go to my spouse and she already either has some wisdom that she's already figured out or she has some judgment or she has some fear, like for her to just be a safe space for me to process. And it's not so much about the answer. It's about the process. And that's where the trust starts to really get established. Let's have a discussion. And in that discussion, you're going to help me to illustrate my truth in who I am and how I feel because we're so safe together.25:33And as that starts to happen, that's where trust really starts to and connection starts to solidify. You can be you, I can be me. We love each other, and we're seeing who each other are by flushing stuff out together, by holding this space together. Then you do that over and over again on different topics. That's where real connection starts to happen. So I make it sound so easy.25:59There's a bunch of things underneath that that are undermining that process from happening in a lot of relationships. One of the things that I'm hearing you say, Brandon, I'm going to narrow it down to a single word is the ability to be curious with your partner, which is really hard when there's that we have such strong emotions tied to our own spiritual beliefs that it's hard anytime those feelings get shaken or threatened.26:27But when there's space to be curious, meaning we can explore things together and have room to talk where there's not going to be necessarily judgment, there is something in that that provides a ton of safety and maybe pull out a couple of others here. We always share our own personal stuff here. But there was a time in my own faith journey where I would consider myself have gone very non active in my own Church and denomination.26:57And it was kind of like radiating through our whole family. And it was definitely a problem. And I was just wrestling with this stuff. And I remember going and having several conversations with my wife as we went through this process where she kind of broke it down and said, well, instead of focusing on what you don't believe, what do you still believe? And then I started answering the questions of what I still believed in. And then she was willing to be a part of it and say, well, why don't we read certain books on those topics?27:26And why don't we let's step away from even the text of our own religion, but let's focus on the things that you do believe. We ended up reading a lot of other texts based off of my beliefs about God and then about Christ andabout lots of other things. And my wife was there along the way, sort of reading those things with me and having discussions with those things with me. And it was really nice to know that I had a partner who was willing to go the journey.27:57I don't know where it would have ended. I've since kind of come all the way around personally to where I'm, like fully active in my own Church and faith again. But I feel like I've got a different relationship with God where I want to go. I have conviction. I have belief that I otherwise didn't have before, and that's worked out for us. Maybe I would have gone a different direction and maybe it would have ended differently, but the journey would have been worth taking. Having had that curious support through the process, does that make sense?28:27Yes. I was just going to say, I know that was not an easy process for my wife. There were multiple times when I could see that her anxiety was raised, that she had worries about things. And to be honest with you, I think there's a couple in a relationship for the long haul. I fully anticipate being that for her, when she cycles through whatever she's going to struggle with, because I believe that we have an ongoing wrestle with God.28:58It's not get to a certain place and stay. It's an ongoing wrestle that all of us have. And it's nice to have someone to do that journey with. Yeah, but Sarah, you're saying that you're in a different place than he is spiritually and that ongoing journey with God that you're talking about, Tyler, it happens on an individual level.29:28We are fed. Look, we're one in Christ. We're one body. We're connected. You're the half that makes me whole, like, spiritually. That's how our full measure of. And so I think a lot of times people interpret that as we need to think the same. And I don't believe that.29:50I actually think you become one with Christ and with God by having the courage and the faith enough to explore together and show up with your individual insights and thoughts. What do you think about that, Sarah? Yeah, for sure. I think that's part of the pain is I feel like he's been taking that journey alone and been having because I feel like I absolutely agree.30:15I've been growing in my faith, and I thought we were having these deep discussions and exploring things together, and he was just fake. It hurts. That's painful. Coming back to your question, Tyler, tangible things.30:39And for you, Sarah, spirituality has some real parallels to sexuality where you're so connected as a couple, yet you're individuals at the same time. So, like, if my spouse came to me and said, hey, spiritually, I think this about God, and it's totally bizarre and different than what I think. And it's what like, that's not where I'm at sexually.31:08If my spouse came to me and said, hey, I want to do this thing, and it's totally bizarre and it can trigger all kinds of things inside of me. Right? This is my point that I'm trying to make. If I am interdependent with her and I stand on my own 2ft and I have my own boundaries, my own good, healthy boundaries and confidence in knowing who I am. And she can say something that seems bizarre to me.31:38And in that moment of bizarreness or whatever, I don't have to jump to defensiveness or fear and control. I can actually step into curiosity with herin that moment. Oh, tell me more. Why do you feel that way? Why does it look that way to you? You're saying the sky is pink. I believe the sky is blue. But help me understand, the sky is pink to you through your eyes. Who are you?32:07Why now? I'm not going to get to a point where I have to say now the sky is pink because you do. I can still believe the sky is blue in an interdependent place. So boundaries are very important is what I'm saying. Their boundaries are like my favorite thing. Your boundaries individually, Sarah, and being disconnected enough from him are important for you to be able to be safe for him. He lacks boundaries with you.32:36And why can I say that? How do I know that? Because he hasn't been fully transparent. Yeah. So he's so scared of your response and your actions. He's overly connected to you and attached to you for his self worth and knowing who he is. So therefore it's hard to be open and honest and connected in your relationship.33:04And so his individual work is important to solidify that so that then you can take these topics and build trust in connection with them. So what would appropriate boundaries look like? Go ahead, please, Tyler. Okay, so you probably already got some going on.33:33So what Brandon is getting at is, number one, the first place you're going to start with your boundaries is looking at your own kind of core beliefs, your own convictions. You're not necessarily going to give up on those in order to keep the peace. What he's saying is that is there a way for you to show curiosity and still have the boundaries that you want to set to live your own faith? So for instance, one would be and I don't know, I don't know, we don't know your situation yet. But maybe I continue to go to Church and I continue to take the kids to Church, even though he might not be going for the time being.34:06Maybe I find it really important to still do my own whatever spiritual practices that I feel convicted in and that I feel helped me. And even though he may be choosing to do other things right now, maybe I choose to hold on to certain beliefs. And when there's a belief that certain aspect of your faith comes up and he's like, how can you actually believe this? It's totally false. I remember having a conversation with a really good friend earlier this summer about some of these things.34:34And it's not that I'm going to go along with them and be like, well, you're totally right. I can at least empathize and say, well, it makes sense why you're questioning what you question. And for me, this is what I believe and this is how and why I believe it. That in and of itself is boundaries. So I don't know. Is that even helping with your question, Sarah? Yeah, I guess those are boundaries that have kind of naturally been established.35:02But Sarah, the over attachment to me, Brady Brown says that boundaries are saying this is what works for me and this is what doesn't. I think that's more of the way to communicate the boundary, but I would say boundaries are much deeper than that, and it's more of knowing where I stop and you begin it's knowing who I am at a level where I can be me and you can be you.35:40And so if you give him the wrong look and if that just shuts him down, then he's lacking boundaries with you because he's over attached to you or viceversa. Right. So if he says, I don't want to go to Church this week and that rocks your world about who God is to you and all of these things, then you're lacking boundaries with him. Right. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah.36:07So whereas the middle ground boundary is, okay, well, that hurts me that you don't want to come to Church. I'm sad about that. And I'm going to continue to go to Church because that's who I am. And I know that kind of bothers you, too. That's the boundary you're talking about, Brandon. Yeah. The stop and end part of where I stop and end. Yeah. And you begin. So when two individuals lack a sense of self and I'm not saying you do, Sarah.36:36In fact, I don't pick that up from you at all. But when two individuals lack a sense of self and knowing who they are, then they lean on each other to try to figure it out or try to fill that gap. And that's where the boundaries really get lost, and that's where safety in the relationship can't be. There where, hey, this is who I am sexually, or this is who I am spiritually. And the other person freaks out because they're too reliant upon their partner for okayness in their life.37:12What's going for you right now, Sarah? Yeah, that makes sense. I think the hard thing is just dealing with. Okay, so we've set the boundaries. We're okay with that. But then there's the pain, right. And I guess is that just like a time thing or how do you deal with the pain and the sadness that comes? Okay, yeah, we're going to do this and we're sticking to our boundaries.37:35But there's that friction, right? Sure. Yeah. But there's also a lot of grief going on, too. Part of this unfortunate truth of all of this is that there is going to be some of that pain. And then the question is, well, how do I navigate the pain while reducing suffering? Because this is going to be hard no matter what. But the way that I interpret things and the way that I respond to things is going to either increase my suffering or it's going to help me be Proactive with things.38:06So I might just suggest a couple of things that aren't going to solve the problem, but they're going to reduce the suffering. Okay. The first one is that every time that pain comes up, I think it's okay to meet yourself in that pain and to validate that it's there. And then that validation of that pain will allow you to move to the second stage, which is to allow for some self compassion first and if possible, compassion for the other side, too.38:35So if I can get to validation of my emotions and self compassion, I can at least reduce the suffering and go, okay, this is a moment of suffering right now. We are in a rough time, but everybody goes through hard times sometimes, and I can figure this out. I'm going to be okay. That's going to encourage you to then move to another step, which is that in the midst of that pain, there's a whole bunch of different tools and skills that you're probably learning in therapy and you're probably learning in your own recovery.39:04I'd go back to the well on some of those things, some of those crisis survival skills, things like really healthy support from other people, self care, lots of self soothing, lots of like bringing your own physical responses down through that self soothing and even some grounding techniques, and then maybe once in a while, if it's really big, some healthy distraction. Although you don't want to do that too often, it's okay to do all of those things tosort of help ride through this sort of inevitable part of the process that you're in.39:39Sarah, he can be a huge asset to you to navigate that pain, or he can be a huge liability. And I would just say do not process this pain with him without the principles of trust intact in your relationship. So you're grieving the betrayal is one thing.40:06And so you're trying to come to some terms and acceptance of that, and now you're grieving with the faith transition, and so you don't have to do it with him. It's better if you can, and it will galvanize you. It'll make your relationship better. And that's what you would want, I would guess. But make sure those principles of trust are in place.40:30Make sure that he's committed to honesty, despite the consequences of it, that he can be honest with you, not just compliant that he's committed to. He say he's learning how to empathize, that he's committed to continuing to learn how to empathize and to get better and better at being curious with you. And then that he's consistent in doing those things over time. And he's showing you that, yes, I have this integrity intact so that I can be the safe space for you to process your pain and your grief.41:05Well, hopefully you can be a safe space for me to process with you what I'm thinking and what I'm going through. Now, if you have this grief and he shows up as a man who doesn't want to live those principles of trust, you still can navigate and process that grief, but you absolutely have the ability to work through that grief independent of him doing your own work.41:37And a lot of things Tyler just listed off like those are the things that you can step into. I might suggest one more thing here, depending on where you're at with your own sort of journey, Sarah, is that process of coming to a place of acceptance of things as they are. And surrender is a really daunting difficult one. But depending on where you're at with your own wrestle with your higher power.42:06That is a place that you can lean for, that place of surrender. And you probably go, I see nodding your head, you probably go there a thousand times a day and say, here, God, I'm giving it back to you. I don't know what the outcome is going to be. And then five minutes later you pick it back up. But I think that there's something about that practice. It's got an element of letting go. It's got an element of surrender and humility that helps cultivate a heart that moves towards acceptance.42:34When you do that exercise, even if it is 1000 times a day of hear God. I don't know how this ends, But I believe that however it ends, you can make it beautiful. And that exercise is really hard Because it takes a lot of faith, but it can also be really powerful. Sarah, I can just attest to what Tyler is saying. I've been there.43:03My wife, she was getting into some stuff in terms of her spirituality and things that was freaking me out. And I was like, Whoa, what's going on here? This isn't what I ever expected. What's happening, what it led me to was really my relationship with God And trying to decipher what's truth? What's not truth?43:33What feels good to me, trying to be as solid as I could be with my truths. And it's really fascinating how it ended up Because my wife had to havecourage to step into those things. It was really vulnerable, really scary for her. Like, really vulnerable. And I could have been so detrimental to her If I showed up in just my fear.44:04But I had to step into this really kind of place of faith of like, look, I'm giving some things to God. I'm going to see how this process plays out. And it has brought me and my wife together in a deeper, more connected way Than I've ever experienced. But we had to walk that space for a little while together, and that's what actually brought us together on this.44:34I'm a living, breathing example of my own relationship. Sarah, you're 29. You're at the beginnings here. Yeah, you look like you're ten, but you're 29. I'm excited for you guys. It's busting open right now and the cards are in the air and they're going to land in a pretty awesome place. If both of you are committed to staying humble and staying honest, you're going to be okay.45:04I appreciate that. Sarah, we're going to get you running short on time here. Have we answered your question or do you have anything else today? Yeah, I think that was pretty good. Some good advice. I appreciate it. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on this show, Sarah. Good to meet you, too. Yeah, this topic of faith, you guys. For those listening, I know that this is a big one in a lot of people's worlds. Please share this with your friends if you think it will be helpful. And again, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on today.45:33All right. See you guys.
