#115: Why Is It A Problem If I’m Always Trying To Please My Partner?

00:00Why is it a problem if I'm always trying to please my partner? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:34This has been a hot topic in my group lately, Brandon, and I think it's going to be a good topic for a podcast as well. Before we do that, we've gotten a couple of new reviews. We thank you guys for the reviews. We're going to read one today. This comes from Love to Run Ron.00:47It says, excellent. I look forward to listening to Tyler and Brannon's expertise each week. The callers are truly brave to bring their issues forward, but they're also very blessed to get such concentrated perspective from Tyler and Brandon as the listeners benefit from hearing the breakdown of each situation and how to approach it. Thank you so much. Thanks. We love your reviews, and we appreciate that feedback. Yeah. All right, Tyler, I just want to start with before we get into our main topic here, I want to start with breaking down a question that we had sent to us.01:23It was kind of a comment slashion, and I was trying to find it. I got lost in my inbox somewhere. But here's the gist of it. We did an episode where we were role playing. We were talking about a partner being triggered and being triggered into believing that their spouse had cheated on them. Right. And I don't know if you're listening to this, if you remember this episode. And so she's accusing him and saying, you cheated on me.01:54I know you cheated. And what we are trying to role play is how to empathetically connect to her and to that trigger without potentially blowing the trigger up because you're going to be answering questions. So the concern was that the person sending the email was that we might be teaching people to not be honest. Kind of. Yeah. So like that we're teaching people to placate their partner and avoid the real answer to the question.02:27Right, right. And I really love that question, that comment because that's the last thing that I want to teach. Right. Well, and to be fair, like, looking at it, our role play wasn't the best either. We kind of sucked at it a little bit, but we were trying to get the point across. Yeah. We were over emphasizing not being defensive and trying to dig down to how she's feeling and what's going on with her and really not being defensive.03:00That doesn't take away the honesty piece. So in order to be like a trustworthy partner, you need both you need to be able to not be defensive, hear her concerns, and be very honest and Truthful at the same time. And so are we going to try this role play again? Tyler? I was just going to say the other thing about the role play itself. Is that it's hard to capture real empathy in a role play.03:31Yeah. So even trying to show the empathy, it didn't come across as, like,real empathy because empathy takes your whole heart, like, it takes the actual ability to connect that emotion. Real empathy is authentic connection. So it's kind of an oxymoron to say, hey, let's role play empathy. It's fake yet you're trying to, but I do want to roleplay it. Tyler. I want to take another shot.04:00Okay, so am I the triggered spouse, or am I the person trying to hold the space and answer the question up to you. But, you know, if I'm the triggered spouse, I'm not going to make it easy on you. You take your pick, man. I can do either. Okay. I'll be the triggered spouse. Okay. You'd be the triggered spouse. All right. Okay.04:26So I come home from work or whatever, I'm walking in the door, and you've been kind of ruminating all day because you found some things. I heard some stuff on the radio that made me think about the past history that you've done, and now all the stuff is starting to spin out of control, and I'm starting your feelings are going all the details and things. Okay. All right, so I come in the door. Hey, Hun. How's it going? Boy, it's been a rough day right now. In fact, I got some questions for you.04:56Can you answer my questions? Of course. Okay, so I want to know exactly the exact first names of all the women you slept with. Okay. I'm happy to tell you that I'm just curious Where's this coming from, what's going on? I'm just mad. I can't believe that there's that many first names, and it's just spinning in my mind, and I can't even believe I'm still questioning why I'm even here with you. Why did I even stay?05:26Yeah. What happened? Why are you questioning this? Did something happen today? Well, I want to know why you're not answering my question. I can answer your question. I'm more than happy to. I just want to make sure that if we do this, that we're doing it in a healthy way. You're the one who's done the betraying. I deserve full honesty. Absolutely. That's the only way we can do this is I deserve full honesty. Absolutely, you do. And I'm willing to answer your questions, and I'm willing to be honest with you.05:58I can also tell that you're kind of really scared right now, and I would be, too, if I were you. I'm here. If you want to sit down and talk. I'm happy to go through that. If you want to talk to our therapist and have her walk us through how to do this, I'm happy to do that. I just want to make sure that this isn't going to cause you more harm and that it's going to help us move forward.06:27Okay. Well, what I don't like is that you're trying to control my response by causing any harm or not. I have a right to decide what I can get and what I don't get. Yeah, I don't want to control your response, but I do want to be as healthy as we can be. That's all I'm saying. Okay. Okay. Sit down and write out the names. And you know what? I probably do that's actually pretty good, Brandon. You did better this time than our last one. But you know what?06:55I probably do and this is the hard part, and I think this could be hard for some people to hear. If she said sit down and write the names right now, I'd probably say I'm willing to I'm not willing to do it right now, not until we're in a place where we can really talk about this in a way that it's helping us move forward. And here's the reason. Now I know what that can trigger. Itcan trigger. Oh, look, he's just trying to get out of this and you're controlling it now.07:25You're in control. Right. It's more about where my heart's at than anything. If my heart truly is in that place of I care about her, I care about us, and I want to do this right. What I don't want to do is to spin this fear cycle with her and become a part of it. I don't want to do that now.07:51If my heart is in a different place, if this is where my heart has been and this is why it's hard for a partner to know if my heart is in self protection mode, dishonesty mode, I really am trying to get out of the vulnerable truth here. Yes. So I'm using all this therapy speak and all this stuff to do that, then I am doing more damage to my relationship. Right. It's hard because the partner who's been betrayed has experienced mostly that second example.08:23Yes. Right. So when he's coming to the table and saying, hang on here, pump the brakes, I can tell you're triggered, let's do this. Right. Her first thought is going to be, here we go again. He's going to mess with my mind again. He's going to F me over. Right. And so this will come out in the wash. If he's really saying I'm willing to do this, then follow through, go to talk to your therapist, or when she is calmed down, you approach her and say, hey, you wanted me to divulge these things.08:53Seems like you're in a much better place now. Are you ready to do that? What am I trying to say? But if he goes away and he avoids and he effectively uses this fake empathy, this therapy speak and all this stuff, then he simply got more sophisticated at avoidance and not building trust in his relationship. Exactly. He's doing more damage to the relationship in the long run.09:21Now with what you're saying, Brandon, I could hear some betrayed partners even taking exception with what you're saying right now and going, yeah, but the reason I'm asking the questions in the first place is because I'm already spun out of control. I'm already in that place. I'm looking for a way to be reassured and to calm myself down. Right. And that reassurance comes from honesty, not from and this is our second topic here, not from compliance.09:52Really. What she's looking for is some strength and integrity from her partner. And you show that strength by both being boundary and honest, empathetic and willing to talk about hard topics. That's how you show that strength. So if I just roll over and I'm like, yeah, I'm horrible and wallow in my shame, then it's just going to create more fear in the future.10:24If I lie and I manipulate in a Gaslight and I Act like I'm strong, but I'm really not, it's just going to create more unsafety in the future. Right, right. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely. I think what's hard is that because that scenario you're painting, it's hard for someone who's experienced that kind of trauma to see in that moment, to see the bigger picture when you go to your partner and say, hey, I want these questions answered, and they go, Whoa, Whoa, tell me what's going on.10:54Why did this come up? And it sounds like you're really scared. And what do you need from me? They're already in a place of thinking, well, I already told you what I need. I need these answers. Even though the answers themselves some of the time, those answers will not actually produce what they're looking for. Usually they don't. They actually produce more of thefear cycle some of the time.11:18But on the flip side, and this is where the concern was from, the person who gave us his feedback is that at the end of the day, that's going to have to be that person's, work on their side to learn what things are going to be helpful to ask and which things aren't. Well, but Tyler, and this is where I'm missing pieces, is a really good, healthy disclosure process is really important for the treatment process, for the betrayed.11:46And why that's important is because you can say, like, having information is important. I want to know if I'm going to have STDs or if you cheated on me a week ago or having information is important. We're not saying that it's not. And so to go to a therapist who knows what they're doing when it comes to disclosure, to walk through that disclosure process and to lay it all on the table, to be able to say, here it is. This is it stripped away of denial, stripped away of blame, stripped away of any kind of excuses.12:19Here's what it is. And what I'm not saying in this example is that the betrayed shouldn't have a forum to actually get the information. Getting the information is important. And how you go about getting that information will really help you either move forward or move backwards. So, yes, this is tricky, isn't it?12:52Yeah. These are hard things because there's a whole bunch of I mean, we can even sit and talk principles here, and it's hard. But then you add in that layer of really high levels of emotion on both sides. Right. So if you get like a triggered traumatized spouse who has been betrayed, coming and asking playing 20 questions, looking for safety is what they're looking for, but really asking all these detailed questions and you meet somebody who can't manage their own shame, this recipe for disaster, then what ends up happening is it becomes just this perpetual back and forth communication of disconnection instead of connection.13:31Yes. You've probably seen that once or twice. Yeah. That's the hard thing. That's what's so hard about this process is that's why we look at it from his, hers and ours perspective is that there's three recoveries that really have to happen. There has to be the grounding from the betrayal. There has to be the work on both sides from shame resiliency. And then when both two shame resilient people come together, what ends up happening is that they can have real validating, empathetic communication that otherwise can't happen if shame is in the mix.14:05Right. You said, you said a word that I think is very important for people to understand. And that's process. So if I'm just starting out and our marriage has gotten to a point where it's blown up now and I'm walking in the door and my spouse is saying, I want to know who you cheated, like who you cheated with.14:30And I show up with a good heart who's trying to be honest and empathetic, and it triggers her to think, here you go again, manipulating me that one time might feel horrible, it might feel horrible for her. It might feel horrible for him. But if he shows up with integrity again and again and again and empathy again and again, and he does that old over and over, that's where that process of trust building starts to happen and the healing starts to happen.15:05So I guess what I'm saying is part of that process is that really messy,painful, uncomfortable place. And for a couple to be able to navigate, that is important in the early stages of recovery. Right, Brandon? And the key with word is processed, because it won't be pretty at first. It needs to be practiced.15:32Basically, the principles need to be reinforced over and over again, and then the practice has to happen so that those principles actually start to set in. This is where a good therapist can be just worth their weight in gold, where they can help you kind of take a 30,000 foot view and say, look, the process is going right. Yeah, it was a week of hell here. But look at these good things that are starting to shift in your relationship. So just stay the course here.16:01Let go of that. There this cycle is hurting you here. And let's keep on this process and let's see what starts to happen. And then you take a next step to the next process. Once you kind of get this one down, then you go to the next level of vulnerability and connection in the relationship. Right. All right, Tyler, hopefully that helps answer that concern. I know there's probably a lot of listeners that probably felt the same way.16:30So thank you for the feedback and the email as well. Love the questions and concerns. I'd like to hear more from people that disagree with us. I really would either. I'd love to have some discussions. I'd love to have some guess, not to have it out, not to argue, but to discuss and maybe shift our perspective on some things as well.16:58When you actually get two people together who think they disagree, a lot of times, what's really happening is that it's just kind of like a coming to the middle of principles of truth on both sides. Yeah. We had a few guests way back in the past that kind of came on, and we thought it was going to be a pretty contentious thing, and it actually ended up being a pretty amicable, like, oh, yeah, we can see this.17:24Well, there's a lot of Gray to sit in and to navigate. And I think when two people can come very honestly but also open, then you can really explore that Gray together and some good truth can be found. All right. I have another kind of example for you. I want you to pick it apart. Okay. All right. Let's do it.17:50So I was talking to a therapist who is working with a couple, and this couple is not in a good place. So they're married because they don't want to get divorced, because they don't want to hurt the kids and deal with the finances of that. He's a validation addict.18:20He has sought validation through women and cheated on her several times. He's a very good looking guy, wealthy, makes good money, works extremely hard, also comes across as very humble and kind and willing to do whatever he possibly can do.18:46And he's also quite resentful toward his spouse, who doesn't give him much validation and really doesn't give him much validation. And when he seeks it from her, it really kind of turns her off. And she's sick of it. She's tired of it. So the therapist is kind of in this place of like, this guy is such a good guy.19:17What's wrong with her? Why is she so bitter? Why is she so angry? Why can't she forgive him and give him his validation and all that stuff? When is she going to forgive him and give him like he's trying so hard? So what doyou see here. Yeah, this is a man, Brandon. We see this so often. And I want to know, I guess, before I kind of break it down with you some more. He's resentful towards her, but is he showing that?19:45No, he stuffs that he feels rejected by her all the time. How does he show up with her? I don't know. The ins and outs of it. But my guess would be is kind of like a child and just trying to prove himself, trying to be good enough. So basically, what you're describing is like the classic case of what the book no more Mr.20:17Nice Guy would call the nice guy. Yeah. So basically, this guy, he's unwilling to own his own feelings in public or with people in his relationships because he can't stand the thought of them not approving of him. And so he spends his life, especially inside of his marriage, constantly seeking the validation of his wife. And now he resents her because she's tired of giving the validation and she's feeling bad because a good person would just give him the validation because he's actually doing all the right things.20:50He's a nice guy and he's providing for the family and he never causes any conflict father. And he's like the ideal husband from the outside. Right. I know for a fact that we're going to have probably more than 1000 listeners right now going, I'm married to that guy. I feel the same way. I can't figure out why I'm still angry and why I don't want to show that stuff.21:20Well, I think we ought to talk about the reasons why, because there's actually some valid reasons why. Right. Really, what's ended up happening now is that in the relationship, the constant pursuit of me trying to get my needs met has led to there being no place for my partner to have altering opinions, for my partner to be their own person, for my partner to have their own emotions, because everything that they do is somehow indicative of whether or not I'm a good enough person.21:57Yes. This is so confusing, though, Tyler, because that Mr. Nice Guy can get from family members, therapists, Church leaders. They're really good at getting that validation. And so they can get messages like, I don't know what's wrong with her. You're doing so good, you're so amazing, you're so wonderful, and your partner is so mean.22:30Brad just being self disclosing. This is my classic case. I'm a nice guy. When it all broke loose with me and my wife, Rihanna, everybody came rushing to my aid. Rihanna would even say things like, Tyler's always the good one, he's never the bad guy. He's always this and that and the other. And she was like, when are people going to see that, Tyler?22:59He's dishonest and he lies and he hides. And because I didn't see myself as dishonest, I was showing up, like being humble to my Church leaders and expecting to be whipped with the wet noodle. And calling up my family members and being like, I'm the bad person. Like, here I am. What ended up happening is like, oh, everyone rushed to Tyler's aid. He's the wounded soul. In the meantime, I've got my wife drowning, but she doesn't know how to put it into words because how can she criticize the fact that I'm now working like crazy and I'm never going to disagree with her ever again?23:35She wants something. You say, jump. I say, how high I'll do it as long as you're happy with me. Tyler, what's broken? What's the big lie? Because I think the spouse who's in that position feels very misunderstood, lonely and desperate, the validation addict or the Mr. Nice Guy could say, Well, I'mjust trying to do the right things.24:07I'm just always doing the right thing. So what is the lie? What is broken? He is. But he still doesn't like himself. Right. What has ended up happening now is without him knowing it, he's now still consuming everyone. He's consuming everyone. He's consuming his wife especially. And that's why she gets to that burnout place, because no matter what she does, she will never have the answer for him. That he's enough.24:38He's doing all the right things for the wrong reasons. Yeah. And that's what's so hard to put your finger on it, is that he is doing the right things and he is a good person. He is actually humble, and he is like, but in some ways, it's showing up in a really sort of selfish, sort of consumptive way instead of from an empathetic, understanding way. But it's a manipulated, selfishness.25:05It's disguised as selflessness 100%. Yeah. And so it's very hard to put your finger on it unless you know what it is, because it's like, no, you are just as dishonest as the guy who blatantly lies to your wife's face and says rude things to her. Yeah. Because you're consuming her. You're using her. You're lying to her, and you're doing it with a smile on your face and trying to use her as much as you possibly can for your validation.25:41That is not being a safe partner. Explain that a little bit further, Brown, when you say you're being dishonest because I'm sitting here as the nice guy going, I haven't lied at all. I'm not being dishonest at all. In fact, I pride myself in my integrity. That's not integrity. Pride yourself in your integrity. Here's the thing. Let's talk about integrity, because I think we can get to the answer to your question. If we look at that integrity is something's ability to keep form when put under stress.26:14Right. So like a bridge, if it's made from steel, if a lot of cars drive across it, it will maintain its form. And so it's safe to go across that bridge because that steel has so much integrity. Okay. Mr. Nice Guy has anything but integrity. They're a shape shifter. When put under stress, they will be a chameleon and they'll comply and become anything they need to be in order to be acceptable in order to be lovable.26:46So they're fake and inauthentic, and it looks like they're nice because they're just trying to keep the peace and trying to get people to say they're awesome. But what they're not is honest. And honest is I am who I am and I'm honest with you despite the consequences. And I can show myself, even if you don't accept of that.27:16I don't need your validation for my self worth. So therefore I can be honest. And that's where you show your integrity, not your pride, not your giving the finger and disconnect from them. Look how strong I am. It's not that, but it's I am me. Let me show you me. And I'm comfortable enough with myself. And I know that God loves me enough that even if you don't like me, I can hold space for you with not liking me and still be honest with you.27:47Right? Am I answering that question? I think you are, Brandon. I love the example you just used of integrity being like a bridge. And if you think about relationally, what you're saying is that both of us in a relationship, we want to be able to step onto the other person's bridge and know that it's going to be what it is. Right? I can go to my wife. That's what I love about my wife.28:17My wife is so amazing at this is that you know exactly where you stand with her all the time. She doesn't put on pretenses. It actually gets her in trouble in the world's eyes sometimes. But it's one thing that I just really beautifully love about her. And I know that in our personal relationship, it was so hard for her because she kind of got accustomed to me being the shape shifter that she could come and she knew, in fact, she'd come to me sometimes and she'd say, hey, Tyler, I just want to fight with you.28:50She knows she could shift you. She'd come to me and she could pretty much tell me to do anything. She'd be like, hey, Tyler, in order to get better. But I think you need to do is I think you need to strip down buck naked and put a big sign over yourself and stand out in front of Walmart and be like, I'm a dirt bag. And I would have been there the next day. I mean, like, I love my wife. I'll do whatever I can for her. Right? And she knows that. And she doesn't deep down, she doesn't actually want that. No.29:18She wants to come to me and say those things, and she wants for me to say a couple of things. Babe, I can tell by the fact that you're saying those things, that you're in a bad spot. By the way, what's that she would never actually say this. No, she wouldn't. But things like that have happened. What she's really looking for, if she were to come to me and say that is for me to be strong enough to show her empathy, but then to also say, you know what? We both know that's not going to solve the problem.29:47It comes back to our first question, an example that we talked about. Yeah. It's that place of I call it masculinity, where you can hold space, you can be you, you can hold space and you can stay true to form and still love and connect a ton. This guy, this example that I'm giving, he lacks integrity.30:16And it really is hard for the wife, who's probably bitter and angry and tired for therapists, for people to come around and say, what's wrong with you? Look how good he is. Just completely takes the rug out from under her of like, I can't win here, right.30:49It's funny you say there's probably a thousand listeners. This is very common. And you think about the nature of sex addiction, Tyler. Underneath it all with sex addiction is I don't know who I am from a young age been beating myself up about my sexuality.31:15I've been destroying my self worth. But the one place that I felt good is through sex, through women, through lust. For a split second, I feel powerful. I feel enough. I feel validated. And so they act out with porn, they act out with other women. They seek validation through sex and through the feminine.31:43And so what happens? They get married and what do you know? They take their wife and they say, I need your validation. I need it both sexually, but I need it otherwise. I need you so badly because I'm used to trying to get my needs met in terms of my self worth from you as a woman. And the woman deep down in her soul, in her femininity, knows it's not my job to give it to you.32:17I don't want to. I can't. Well, I think it gets confused, though, Brennan, because deep down inside, many women are also they want to be kind and nurturing and understanding, like their personality is to do such things. So that's why it feels so terrible to them, because then they go, well, I'm being who I am. I'm being this personality part of me that wants to care forpeople.32:44But why is this, like, feel bad, right. It actually gets twisted because deep down inside, they know it doesn't feel right. But they also can't pinpoint, like, why it doesn't feel right. Right. And look at the power dynamic that happens in a relationship like that. It destroys the polarity. It doesn't work, right? No. And so the hard part and maybe, Tyler, you can speak to this before we wrap up is for a guy who needs validation and has sought up from his wife and other people.33:19What does it take for him to shift out of that? Yeah, Brandon, this is a good question. I just want to maybe share another little bit more of personal stuff here for a second. With the way you just described it, the thing about sex addiction versus other addictions is that in a lot of ways, it seems to be more easily hidden. So take me as a teenage kid who had a nickname of, like, Angel Boy.33:47Yeah, I had no idea Angel Boy was jacking off in the neck. I used the shower right after you. Who knows? What was it? Yeah, Brandon, exactly. And the funny thing is that that's the way it was all the way through high school, right? Like, here I was trying to keep up this image because I valued being the honest kid. I valued being the moral kid. I was shocked to know, yes, the truth. Meanwhile, there's this secret thing that you nailed.34:18Exactly. I was looking for soothing from a lot of pain that had happened. And I found it even in some ways, in what you would call the nurturing ways. But it came through pornography and through hidden things. And then I did carry that without even knowing it. Without even knowing it. I carried that belief into my marriage. And then when my wife wasn't able to be the person who just gave the answer that I was enough.34:48Then it continued because I was still pursuing this bottomless pit until I finally blew everything up. And then when I blew everything up, I thought, oh, I'm a terrible person. I'm a horrible guy. Like, I'm not even worthy of living anymore. That lie that you believed all along was just truth. Now it's like, yeah, here it is. Everything I've done, even trying to protect my wife by not telling her, now all of a sudden it's proof. It's just more proof than I'm a horrible guy. So to answer your question, what I've kind of come to realize for myself is I didn't see it at the time, but I had placed everyone I had placed you as my brothers.35:23I'd place my friends, I'd place my parents, I'd place my wife, especially my wife, in the position that God should have been in. And they became a barrier between me and God that I would have never actually getting the truth about my value. And so the real work was to wrestle with moving people out of the way and people's validation and their validation and moving more and more fully into a wrestle, which is scary because this is the very place I was so scared of in the first place was getting my answer from a true source about who I was as a human being.36:03The fact that I was breathing today, I'm a miracle. The fact that I am who I am, regardless of what I choose to do, I'm a miracle. And so doing that work and that came through self compassion that came through Daily's work, that came through wrestle spiritually, that also came in some ways by starting to push a little bit in certain relationships Where I had to actually start setting up some boundaries and say, you know what? It doesn't workfor me. And it was stupid things at times.36:33At the beginning it was like, where do you want to eat? And I'd be like, usually like, wherever you want. I love whatever you want. And now it's turned into where do you want to eat? And I say, I would go for this place, to this place. And then the answer is always, no, I don't like that. Let's go somewhere else. Right? And it's like, well, you asked me. So those are the two places, right? Even that was like pulling teeth. It was like, oh, someone's going to disapprove of me or I don't want to make waves in that uncomfortable feeling that they might not like me, but I'm okay.37:02Regardless, I have to be able to get in the spot of whatever people think of me. I should be able to question similar to what happened with this feedback you got from this woman with our last podcast. Like, we need to be able to hear that and go, okay, good. Maybe there's something we could learn or tune up from that. And at the end of the day, she's not God. We're going to go do what we believe is right between us and what we believe in living in authenticity.37:35And that's really the practice that has to happen, and sometimes it has to start really small. Yes. Love it. Tyler, we could go on and on about this topic, and there's a lot of little intricacies to it. I think you're nailing the depths of it. The trauma leads to shame.37:54The shame leads to reinforcing the beliefs that were taken on during the trauma, and you can reinforce it over and over and over and over again, and not until you're willing to step through that go deep, practice some courage and connect to a higher power that actually will give you your validation. Can you actually heal it? People who crave validation and it doesn't work.38:26What they usually do is double down and try harder to get more validation. Exactly. And then they come in and they say, I've tried everything. It's like you've tried everything of the same thing over and over and over and over again. Right. So if this has triggered anything in you, then good. We want you to think through this. If you're a partner of a Mr. Nice guy, if you're a Mr. Nice guy, there's resources.38:56There's good therapy findtieler@lovestrong.com, right? That's right. Or you at therapy, Utah, right? Therapyuta.org. So, alright, you guys have a wonderful day and we'll see you later.