#117: How Does My Enmeshed Relationship With My Mother Affect My Recovery

00:00How does my unmeshed relationship with my mother affect my recovery? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:32Hi, Tyler. Can't wait to talk about it. But before we do, I have an announcement. This is a huge. I'm always afraid of your announcements, Brandon. This is a huge, groundbreaking thing. Like, this is amazing.00:47But Tyler, in front of almost all of our siblings and their spouses, actually failed right in front of us. He actually allowed himself to fail. The family hero made my night. That was the greatest thing ever. That was a big deal, Brandon. And I've never let you guys see me fail before. Yeah. I've just thought my whole life. You've never failed. Yeah, exactly. I've been the perfect one my whole life.01:16Right. Brandon came up for the weekend and not for the weekend, just for a night. And we did, like, an Equin assisted thing with my siblings, and then we decided to just go catch a bite to eat afterwards, and I was supposed to be on a cleanse for myself. You're on the cleanse that I was doing, and our wives got talking, and next thing you know, Tyler's on the cleanse. I'm on the cleanse, too.01:43I'm about halfway through the cleanse, and everyone, all the siblings want to go out to dinner, and they happen to choose to go out to a dinner, a place that I really like. And so I'm sitting there watching my siblings kind of get all their food and stuff, and I'm like, the inside of me is saying, Tyler, to be a good boy and to be the good example and to be the oldest brother, just stick with the cleanse and hold on to your pride. And then I just thought to myself, Today's the day. Like, I'm breaking.02:12I broke on the cleanse, and I ate dinner with you guys, and it was great. Yeah, it was great to see you fail. You failure. I actually really appreciated it. I want you to succeed. Don't get me wrong. Right. But I appreciated your vulnerability, and I knew that place was one of your favorite places, too. That's why I chose it. I was trying to sell well at work, man. It sounds like I need to surround myself with different people.02:43No. All right. Anyways, so, Austin, are you muted? Austin? Yes. There you go. Voila. Okay, Austin, you're here with us. So if you could give us a little bit of background and then ask away. Ask questions. Sure. So my name is Austin. I'm grateful. Recovering sex. Aholic. Currently in recovery.03:12What brings me here today? My relationship with my mother throughout childhood was very, I guess, very dependent on her happiness and emotional wellbeing.03:32And I say that because a lot of my memories that I can think of in childhood is a lot of her being upset with me and a lot of me trying to get her back to a point to where she was happy or where she was the most loving.03:59And a lot of what I experienced was the disconnection that I felt if I were to make a bad choice. So if I were to do something that of course she didn't like and she was upset with me, I would recognize her irritation or her anger with me and recognize that, okay, now I have to do something to gain her love back or gain her happiness back.04:36And I think that plays into a lot of the relationship that her and my father had. I felt like I was always really thrust into the middle of their issues. I can recall at the youngest age, probably of like six or seven, where they would get into an argument and one of them would threaten to leave.05:07And when they would try and leave, I would, of course, get afraid. I would have this fear that I don't know if they're going to come back. I don't know what's going on. Divorce was always in the back of my head, and that really created this abandonment fear. And I found that trying to step in the middle of their disagreements and fights was kind of the role that I took on.05:38And the role was if my dad wasn't able to make her happy, then okay, now I have to step in and I have to repair almost their issues so that she's in a better spot. I see that that's been my role in that relationship for the majority of my childhood.06:05Most recently, there was some kind of betrayal on my mom's side to my dad. And this was when I was still living at home. She had some photos that she had hid from him. And I was basically thrust into the middle of this.06:30And at the time, I was dealing with my own relationship and my own betrayal of my partner. And we had done some work. So I had known some of the problems that can occur in betrayal. So my dad was coming to me and asking me all these questions because he was, of course, distraught.07:00And I just remember I was giving him tips on how to handle my mom. And then my mom came to me and told me I never did anything physical with anyone. And just all this stuff that I didn't need to know, that's completely zero boundaries. And that's another big part of my childhood, too. There's very little boundaries.07:32I guess just what I'm curious about is and I kind of know from experiences with my fiance right now, but how that relationship has shown me how to be in a relationship and how I can kind of get out of that cycle.08:02Austin, I appreciate you sharing all of this. It's pretty vulnerable to share this stuff. I'm wondering if you could just expand I want to go two different directions with you. The first one is in your mind, in your day to day living right now, it sounds like you're in a relationship with a fiance, looking at maybe getting married not just in the context of that relationship, but maybe that one is the biggest one.08:27What are the current day struggles that you're now facing or the patterns that you're now finding yourself in that you think are connected to this backstory that you just gave us? Sure. That's a really good question. From what I see is I find myself trying to like, for example, if my fiance gets upset and I find myself trying to get her back to this level of happiness, andthere's been several times where she's had to stop me and say, hey, this is what I'm feeling.09:03And just because you do this and this and say sorry doesn't mean I'm going to be back to happy. Joyous bubbly me in ten to 15 minutes, which is what I experienced with my parents most of the time. Mostly my mom, I could just say sorry and everything was back to normal. So that's something that I do struggle with.09:29And also wanting to keep my fiance happy, wanting to keep her happy in the terms of if there's something that she wants to do and I maybe don't want to do it or I have second thoughts about what she wants to do, I instead kind of make myself do it because I don't want to disconnect with her.09:55I don't want to make her feel like I don't want to do what she wants to do, and I don't want to make her sad. I don't want to make her upset. I don't want her to be alone. And I know that there's a healthy amount of, you know, where we can both be interdependent and like, she can do her thing. I can do my thing.10:24But I find myself wanting to be close with her a lot. And when I'm not, it seems like I'm I don't know. It seems like I'm not there for her, I guess. What does that mean if she happens to not be happy with you? What's the story inside of you that's going on? And what's the actual emotional experience when there's that level of fear disconnection? What is that?10:54Definitely the fear of abandonment. Fear of I'm not good enough. And if she's not happy, then she's not going to want to be with me and that she's going to end up leaving or finding someone else that's better. Or finding someone who can bring her constant joy or happiness. I have a question for you, Austin, going right down.11:23Where kind of Tyler's going here? If you get her, your fiance to let's say she's in a good place, she's happy, you feel like she thinks you're good, you're happy, and so you just feel good because she's happy. Is that love? I guess from my experiences with this, I wouldn't say so.11:58I mean, because that's just us feeling happy, it doesn't necessarily mean that loving actions are occurring. Yeah. When she's happy and that makes you happy, there's kind of an exchange going and you're consuming her.12:26I need you in order for me to be happy with the dynamic that you outlined with your mom. That's a recipe for sex addiction and codependency. I really like how you brought up interdependency that need to please. I need to make sure that you're okay, because when you're okay, then I can be okay.12:54But that need to please turns into I need to consume you for my okay. I want to back up a little bit. Austin, do you understand how that enmeshment with your mother and that relationship dynamic with her leads to sex addiction? I partially can see the correlation, but I'd love to hear your explanation and why.13:27Yeah. Tyler, I want to ask you, when you do intakes or you have clients come in and they have some real strong enmeshment to mom or to both parents, for that matter. I'll do intakes and I'll hear the stories of enmeshment. I can almost start to tell them, and it led to this. This is how itplayed out. Right.13:54So with the sex addiction. And I'm going to ask you, Tyler, how does that investment to mom? How does sex addiction play into that? Yeah. So actually, this is really good one, Brandon. And Austin, I'd actually love for you to kind of fill in the gaps here on where I miss. But basically what I'm hearing you say is I need to make sure in order for me to be safe and think about this. This is a kid that's developing.14:24The kid doesn't know any other way to understand the world. This is just how he sees the world as. My primary caregiver is my mom. That represents safety, security. So when mom's happy, I feel safe and secure. So the child because they don't know either way to manage things is that when mom's not happy, then the way that I can try to get safe and secure again is to make mom happy. But that starts to form beliefs that then say I'm responsible to manage other people's feelings just so I can feel safe and secure in the relationship.14:51So now, because I'm not perfect and because I can't really actually control what the adults are doing in my life, it feels scary, it feels unstable, it feels insecure all the time. And in this case, what I'm really looking for for my mother is I'm looking for some nurturing. I'm looking for that actual support that a child's looking for. And when I don't get it, I eventually have to go find it in other places. And some of those places are now paired with beliefs that I can't disappoint anyone.15:20So I better not let them see where I'm going. And think about what sex offers, especially what's promised to a child or a teenage boy when they start stumbling into things like pornography or their own sexual response. It offers satiation, it offers some version of nurturing. And so it makes sense now, but now it's paired with also secrecy because I can't let down the people in my life that I need to manage their feelings on. Tyler, can I add something to the mix of what you just said?15:50It's all the things that you just said on top of the pornography being very heavily in a way, it's fake about a woman's pleasure. Right. And so all those things and then it's like women in pornography orgasm very easily. They're really pleased. They're pleased for a long time. And so here you are as a young child, saying the most important thing is that I keep a woman, my mother happy.16:20That's the most important thing. You go into the fantasy realm of pornography, and it's women being very pleased. Right. It's being very happy. And it's intoxicating because you found that golden goose. You found that thing that's like, yes, that's what I ultimately want. That's not even sexual either. That's scratching that little boy's emotional. Itch of like, oh, security, safety. I found the golden ticket.16:50Right. It's so overwhelmingly addicting because it's in a fake way, Austin, and in a way that you can dial it up almost any time consistently. Yeah. You found that thing that you're not ultimately getting from mom. She's consuming you.17:18She's using you, and you will never, ever be able to fully please her and take care of all her pains and all her needs and all those things. But a young child doesn't know that, right? So with porn in a fake way, you can get to that ultimate destination for a split second, for a moment, and then after that,how do you feel after you act out and how do you feel, Austin? Post acting out post.17:48That relief, like Tyler was saying, it's like that emotional. Itch that needed to be scratched. And it's just like all of the relief comes at once, and it's like I'm back at square one. But then after that, it just goes right back into it just continues on that shame cycle and drives you right back into guilt and shame and acting out again eventually.18:18So, yeah, I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to please to take care of a woman. And so now I need to go make my fiance happy and show her what a good guy I am or make my mom happy and show her what a good guy I am because I deep, deep down feel horrible about myself, which then leads to I'm going to go get that need met in a fake way again, because deep down, I always feel like a failure because I can't quite live up to what I should be.18:48Right. Are you relating to that offer is me and Tyler kind of going off. I can absolutely see the relation between all of that. Personally, I did use pornography for the earliest time I remember is, like, at the age of 13, and that was 14 years ago. So I've since stopped. I've not used pornography for at least a year to a year and a half.19:23I think that's right. It could be almost two years now. But I can see that correlation between not feeling enough for anyone else. And I know that that started with mom and started with I would also consider myself to be a people pleaser. So I can see where that kind of began as well.19:45Of like, I feel responsible for everyone else's emotions, and then I have to make sure everyone else is good before I am and that if everyone else is good, then I can be good. Then I can be okay if everybody else is okay. Yeah, I definitely can see that correlation, and especially with my fiance as well. If I'm okay and if she's okay, then everything's okay.20:18But it's got to be that she's okay first and make sure that she's feeling okay. If I notice if she has a sad look on her face or if she's not talking as much, if she's not being as vulnerable, I'm constantly like, hey, are you okay? Are you okay? And it's always like, yeah, I'm okay instead of what I'm wanting is, no, I'm not okay because of this.20:49And allowing me to I know it's not the right way to go about it, but allowing me to kind of fix. And I know that Mr. Fixit attitude doesn't do anything either, because it's trying to kind of force her out of that emotion and force her back to a spot to where it in turn, gives me the ability to be okay.21:15So it's like a selfish way of trying to get her back to in stable emotional state. Right. Also, can I just ask you a question before we move on from this a little bit? I'm just wondering, like, if you were talking, you said basically you've got a 14 year ish relationship with pornography. And I use the word relationship with pornography for a reason.21:43In all of those 14 years, how many times has it crossed your mind in that relationship with pornography? That the reason that you were doing it is that you are trying to find and be enough and that you are going to throw some way through fantasy or other things that's what you were actually pursuing?22:05I couldn't say any of those times until I was finally stepped away from it and finally worked on my own recovery and was able to see what I was actually feeling because it's so numbing. I think that's the point that I really want to drive across to some of our listeners here is that most people don't even understand that I heard a quote one time that says many men go fishing all their lives never realizing that it's not fish they're trying to catch.22:42And really what it's alluding to is that most men want to go fishing because they're trying to find God or they're trying to connect to their fathers or something else, but they never understand that because they're so hyper focused on the fish. And in your case, you're like many people, you've probably had a story in your head about what a failure you are and how terrible you are and how dirty and what a scumbag you are because you sexually act out without ever actually pausing to say, wait a second, there's a little boy in here that actually learned the very best he could to navigate the world he was living in because he didn't know what else to do to manage the emotions of the adults in his life.23:20And he happened to find a way out where he could learn to cope without causing a bunch of damage, at least in his mind, to everybody else. All he had to do is stay secret, hide, lie, and then go into fantasy and somehow get that itch scratched. Nobody thinks about those things until you get into recovery and start realizing why this wasn't even about sex. This is about so much more, right? Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.23:54I was just going to say that's very deep way to depict that, and that's very true. Another thing I guess I just wanted to add in to the mix is I think with all of this on top of that, I'm also an only child and an only grandchild and an only nephew.24:24So on top of that, it's a lot of the pressure added on top of not being good enough and the secrets and trying to make sure everybody is okay. Yeah. I was wondering about your family system and how many siblings. And right there the reason Tyler kind of chuckled because it's like so obvious the investment with your parents and the pressure.24:55I can't imagine Austin just being born into that system with so much pressure on you. And they probably doted over you and you're so important and all these things and all that's great. And you had plenty of attention and also you were used in many ways. I want to maybe shift gears just a little bit and then get at the heart of an answer.25:28How do you address this and what can you do about it? I have a good friend who is barely married. Still, I would say has a horrible relationship. He is just doting over his wife all the time. He will move mountains to make sure that she's happy. He never has his own opinions. He's the definition of Mr.25:57Nice Guy. If you haven't read that book no more Mr. Nice Guy, you should read that book. He's the definition of Mr. Nice Guy. And it's interesting because you look at him and it's like, man, I think anyone would love to be married to him. Like he'll do anything for his partner. Anything. I think it's good to be willing to do anything for your partner and sacrifice. Here's the problem. It's the intent behind it. And so his wife at this point kind of hates him.26:27And it's really interesting because he's Mr. Nice Guy, do anything for her,and she hates him. Why would she? It's because he's a liar and he's fake and he's manipulative and he shows up weak with his masculinity and creating safety in that relationship with her. From the outsider looking in, it's like, wow, what a good hearted.26:57And he is a good hearted, wonderful man. He is that his trauma and his shame and his fear run the show and his relationship with his wife, and it's leading to divorce because he is lying to her. He is lying to her over and over again. And our partners in relationships, in building trust, they want authentic connection.27:26Authentic connection has to happen in a relationship where there's difference, there's conflict there's, hey, I want A and you want be. I'm going to be honest with you that I want A and I know that makes you comfortable because you really want B or you really see it this way or that way. I see it that way. And I'm strong enough within myself, and I love myself enough to be able to say I am absolutely okay with you being uncomfortable, and therefore I can love you as you're uncomfortable.28:03I can empathize with you. I can see you. I can give you your space if you need it. Take your space. I'm okay. I'll be here waiting when you're ready. Right? You're mad at me. You can be mad at me. I want to listen to that. In fact, tell me more about how mad you are. I'm good with that. Right? And it's that strength, Austin, that builds real trust that lays the foundation for real love in a relationship.28:29Okay, so I said that we'd get to the heart of really what needs to be done in order to shift for you, Austin. I think that ultimately is that's what your question is, right? So I think we've talked about the investment. We're talking about the codependency with your relationship. So we're seeing kind of where it came from, and we're seeing the fruits of it now.28:59How do you turn the tide on it? How do you actually start to heal it? Tyler? Do you want to chime in? I do. I want to reemphasize a couple of things you said just to make them Crystal clear for our listeners. I'm having this thought, as you were talking, Brandon, that you use the word intention. The intention, Austin.29:24I'm actually hurting inside thinking of the little boy who has lived basically his entire life motivated by everything he does from a place of fear and shame. Too long and for too much of your life, you've had fear and shame in the driver's seat of everything you decide to do. And that's painful. I mean, I'm getting choked up thinking about the little boy who's had to make decisions from that place his whole life. Are you relating, Tyler? Oh, my gosh.29:54Maybe a little bit. Yeah. Actually a lot. That's a hard place to be, because no matter what you do, even when you get it right, it won't be enough and it will still be wrong. And this goes back to something Brandon was saying, shame unravels connection, because shame is void of love. And when this sounds backwards, because all you've really wanted as a little boy is that feeling of love. And all you wanted is to be enough so that there is love.30:23And if you're enough, then everybody's happy. Then there is love. And somehow that doesn't play out. And that's not how it works. So the real work here is understanding that I'm going to have to figure out how to move shame and fear to the back seat of the car and put something else inthe driver's seat. And that's a hard thing to do when you live your life thinking that the only way you're good enough is when everybody else is happy. But understanding that and being able to start recognizing, okay, who's in the driver's seat right now?30:56Why am I doing what I'm doing? Because you're the kind of guy who's going to be an awesome husband, because you care and because you want to love. But the only way you can actually love is when it's your choice to offer the things you're going to offer instead of feeling compelled to so that you won't be rejected. That's the work that's ahead. So I don't know, Brandon. If you want to go over Boston, you have thoughts on that before.31:23I definitely can see from both of your points of view as far as the shame that's behind it fear that's behind it. I do see in myself with the intention. I find that I've started to start doing things that are more meaningful for my fiance, that I'm doing them just because I want to.31:57And I'm not doing them because I guess because I want her to feel happy. She works 312 hours shifts as a nurse overnight each week. So she works her butt off, and she's always very tired, very stressed out and overwhelmed.32:26And I found that I've tried to start doing things that are more helpful for her. And I find that in doing those things, I feel loving doing those things. Just simple things like filling up her cup for her before she comes home to rest, leaving notes for her.33:00Just little things of love that I've found have kind of become routine. And I do see, though, that correlation behind the intention, because at some point, there's that little voice inside me that's like if I don't do this, then what?33:23But I think it's more of, like, me noticing in myself that I forgot to do something or that if I don't do something, then there's going to be questions of like, well, why didn't you do this this morning? Because you always have done this. And then it's going to be like, oh, I've been foiled or not foiled, but found out that I forgot to do something.33:55But I can definitely see a lot of my past actions when I was acting out, a lot of it was like doing it to try to feel better about myself. And it was coming from a very selfish place, trying to make sure that she was okay, that she was happy.34:21But in turn, it was just like want to make sure she was happy and okay so that I could be happy and okay. Austin, I think it's a tricky thing because I think at your core, you're probably just a good hearted guy and that's who you are, and that's authentic and that's real. So if you serve your fiance or somebody else for that matter, that could just be you being you, right.34:52Like you show in Austin to the world. That's great, right? The problem is when there's an agenda and when there's fear involved in why you're doing what you're doing, when we talk about intentionally, that's actually not the loving kind, Austin. It's not a loving and kind thing. And I promise you, as you get married and over time, if you continue to manipulate in that way to get love from your fiance, she's going to have this feeling of, Yuck.35:25It's going to be like, I don't want you to serve me. You know what? Don'tget me the water before I get home from work. I don't want it because there you are. Like, did you see that? I did that? Did you see that? I'm okay. So Carl Yoong, in his philosophies on psychology, he talks about how our suffering is outward in. So we're too focused on the outward.35:54So what that means is we want validation from everybody else. We entitled to call it the opposer. We step into our shame screens, we pose, we do all of these things. And what Yoong says is the way the healing is actually inward first. And so instead of trying to have certain boundaries with your mom or show up a certain way with your fiance or be a certain way, you actually need to really get to know yourself and to love yourself and get to know yourself well.36:28And so there's these pleasing parts of you that are there, and they've been ingrained in you for a long, long time. So what we don't want to do, Austin, is to hate those parts of you. Those parts of you are there, and they've actually been really good at helping you survive in the systems that you're in. So that's awesome. Like, good for them. They're beautiful. And you want to really get to know them and be conscious of them because a lot of them show up unconsciously and automatically.37:02So it's like, oh, there's that part, like with my mom, I do that thing. And yeah, that's that part that really helps me look good to her. And it's showing up with my fiance now. Thank you. Part. I see you. But I want to start to bring other parts of me to the table. And what you would say is you can get to know your shadow. You can love that part of you.37:29And as you do that and become conscious of it, you can step into what you choose. Right. So a lot of this what I'm talking about comes from it's a therapy called Internal Family Systems. And I'd recommend that you go see an Ifs therapist, Austin, so that you can take control some. And rather than live in that unconscious and automatic reaction to the fear triggers. Right.37:59Am I making sense? Am I using too much therapy? Jargon, I get where you're coming from as far as the I'm familiar with Carl Yoong that getting to know myself more and getting to love myself on every level and love every part of me, instead of depicting, you know, well, these are the good parts of me. These are the bad parts of me.38:25This is the stuff that led me down the destructive pathways. And therefore, those parts don't deserve the love. But instead of thinking it in that way, love all of it equally, just move into other parts of me that I can choose. Right. As a fiance. I mean, you're on the cusp of getting married. Right.38:53And so if you really get to know yourself well right now, you can step into that marriage and say, I'm really going to bring this part into the marriage, really nurture that part of me. Because in Austin, it might be that part of you that's more confident and that natural, loving part of you that can hold space for her. Right. But still show up in confidence and boundaries.39:20I'm going to bring that part into the relationship more than this part that's really good at trying to manipulate somebody into seeing me as good. Right. But we need to love that part of you in order for you to choose what part you want to bring in. Right. Right. Tyler, any thoughts on this? Yeah. So I actually want to Echo what Brown and said. I do think something like ifs would be a really good therapy choice if you're going to go see a therapist.39:48And in the meantime, on the day to day, every time you find yourself in that place of doing something for anyone, your fiance or anyone else and you happen to have that feeling of fear cross through you, I'd stop and I would just do a really quick exercise and I would just first and foremost, acknowledge the fear. Notice where you feel it in your body.40:13Notice what the storyline is around it, acknowledge what the storyline is, and then access a little piece of love and compassion for yourself and say, okay, that's that part of me. Like Brandon's talking about. That's the fearful part that learned a long time ago to try to manage people's feelings. Or maybe you recognize it in your language, your language today. There was a lot of it in your language. Like, I need to make her feel this way. When you start recognizing that language, you go, oh, that's the fearful part of me.40:45I'm going to meet that with compassion and love first, and then I'm going to allow myself to make a different choice. So that's the day to day kind of grind work that you can do for yourself. So in my situation, I was shame. Like, oh, Tyler, there's your shame. Okay? The truth is, everybody feels shame sometimes. You're human. It's all right. And there's more to life than shame. Like, you're work in progress, you're a force for good.41:15You can make your own choices and then make a new choice, whether it's an act of self care or maybe it's still the thing you're choosing to do, but now you're doing it from a place of, I'm choosing to do this because this is the person I am instead of I'm doing this so that so and so will be happy with me. So now what you're doing is you're just now living with new intention instead of letting the autopilot just carry on. And that would be just kind of maybe a suggestion for the day to day sort of grind work that you have in front of you.41:46Okay, Austin, I want you to answer questions for me, and I want you to give me two answers, and they might be the same, but I want you to tell me what your head says, and I want you to tell me what your heart says. Okay? So are you responsible for your mother's? Okayness. And happiness? My head says, Hell, no. Yes, love it.42:17My heart says, sort of, good. So what's the way that you actually start to live what you believe in your head rather than what you've felt for so long by, I think, more internal self work and that hard work and working on my actual soul work, so to speak, and what I truly believe and also what my real values are.42:59And that while I may value helping other people, it doesn't mean I put myself last. It's funny you bring up the internal family systems therapy. Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm actually in counseling with my parents. We have a counselor.43:25I don't know what kind of counselor, but in that I've found that kind of inner self coming out in those sessions and telling my parents like, no, I'm not going to be okay with this.43:46Sort of behavior and setting those boundaries with them and the bounce back that I get from them during the sessions, it gets to be very tiring and very overwhelming. Yeah. But I guess what I was getting at is what that counselor had said was instead of pouring from a full glass, you have to give from the overflow.44:21So let the glass overflow of you working on yourself, and you don't give any of that full glass. You give what pours over. So then you're never any form of empty. Yes. You've been trained to empty yourself for way too long.44:46I've been trained that if I can fill my glass a little bit, I can pour it out and try to keep giving even when I'm on empty. And that's where the pain and fear comes from. And all of the feelings that I feel on a day to day basis when trying to trying to give constantly. I hope you know that it's okay to go through a process of anger.45:21If you really look at this and your mom and dad didn't mean to use you, but you've been used. And so when you acknowledge that, it might piss you off a little bit and for you to allow yourself to feel that grief part of the grief, to coming to terms with this is the anger part of it.45:44And for a time, you might need a certain type of relationship with your parents as you walk through this and really become an adult. Austin, you're a courageous guy who's willing to do this work. A lot of people would just be stuck in the consequences of this. And you're saying, I'm going to face this. I realize that this isn't healthy.46:12I don't want to repeat these patterns with my fiance and with my own kids. And so I'm willing to step through the hard stuff so that I don't repeat these patterns. So I really appreciate your strength. Austin. I'm feeling it from you today. Tyler, any last things you want to say? No, man. I've never met you before in my life, but I just want to say that I'm proud of you in the work you're doing, man.46:34Like to be on the verge of creating a new marriage, to be working your own personal recovery of your own fruition, and then to be going into the depths of those places and actually even being willing to include that your parents in that process, everything you're doing is screaming courage. And for a guy who's lived in fear his whole life, good on you, man. Way to go. You're going to find yourself in the right places because of the way that you're choosing to live your life now.47:06And I just want to say that I'm grateful that you were willing to come and put yourself out here today. You're going to help people as a result. Thank you so thank you. Awesome. Austin, I just want to say maybe we could have you back in a little while and just see how you're doing and see this is a process right? This isn't a one time conversation and all these things go away, but it's a process of facing your fears and practicing courage and consistency in it and I'd love to see how things are going in a little while so maybe we'll check in with you.47:39I'd love to come back on. Absolutely. Okay. Awesome. You guys. Thank you for listening today. Please share this. If you know anybody who's struggling with enmeshment codependency shame this will be really beneficial for them so don't be shy and please share this episode. Have a wonderful day. We'll see you guys. Thank you.