#118: What Is A Healthy Disclosure?

00:01What is a healthy disclosure? This is gonna be a good topic. Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery.00:14Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery, the topic today. We get lots and lots of questions about disclosure, so hopefully we'll be able to line some things out and help people understand what the process looks and should more importantly, feel like. Yes.00:45So we'll get into the little intricacies and the ins and outs of it, and we're going to kind of show you behind the curtain a little bit what we do as therapists and more importantly, why we do it. But before we do, Tyler, we wanted to talk about something. Yeah. The Radiant Don conference is just about a month away from the time of us recording this episode, which means it's probably just a few weeks away at this point for our listeners.01:16So I don't know if there will be spots at this point. I hope so. There's just a few spots left. It is getting to the selling out point. So if you're on the fence, you've really been thinking about it today. Now is the time to sign up for it. And hopefully you still can because it's filling up and we're excited about it. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be so good. We've been kind of putting some things together.01:44We have our weekly meetings, and we have everything kind of in order. And I'm really excited about it. I think the principles that we're covering are just true principles, but the way that it gets covered is you can't really compete with the experience of it all. Well, and Tyler, for somebody to say, you know what, I've been going to therapy for a long time.02:06I've been trying to get better, but to actually stop and take four days to focus on you, focus on your relationship with God, focus on your healing, going to a beautiful place surrounded by people who are doing their own work and by therapists and staff that love you and support you and walk you through a process of healing. It's amazing to me. It's so much better than just sitting in a therapy office trying to fix yourself.02:38You're communing with God. You're in nature, you're experiencing things. So I'm a huge believer in getting your therapy done that way. Absolutely. Come on out. We did the men's retreat up in Bear Lake, Utah, last year in the fall, and we got a lot of really good feedback from that. But one of the most poignant things that I heard from one of the men who attended was that he said, I've been doing treatment for the last several years.03:05I've spent thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of therapy and groups. And he said, I feel like this weekend was more valuable than all of that put together. Yeah. Tyler, you and I both understand why that doesn't shock me that he said that whatsoever, because we were there and we felt it and wesaw it. So we can't really put into words what it is exactly.03:36All we can say is, if you feel in that, hey, maybe I need to do that, have enough courage, go sign up. And we'd love to see. Absolutely. So it's radiantdonconference.com. That's right. Okay, Tyler, disclosure.03:56So let's break down the nuts and bolts of disclosure, why we do it, how it works, what we do so that people can understand why it's helpful to do it the right way and how a bad disclosure can really cause more damage and harm and how to avoid that. So most of the people that are listening have probably been through a bad disclosure or many. Yeah. I just understand if you have done it the wrong way as we talk, that sucks.04:31It caused some harm, it caused some pain. But hopefully if you go through it again the next time, you can do it differently so that it can go better. Absolutely. So when we talk about disclosure and the need for disclosure, it kind of boils back down to a couple of principles that just need to be mentioned upfront, which is that we as human beings, are wired for connection and attachment. That's why we're in the relationships we're in the first place.04:56And when our relationships become threatened, especially because of something that one of the partners is doing, it causes everything to be on shaky ground, and it throws everything into question in terms of trust. So it's not just, oh, this one person did this one thing. The fact that they did this thing and they hit it also leads to all sorts of other questions and fears and worries. And it feels as though the relationship doesn't have any firm footing to stand on in the midst of betrayal.05:30How can you start the healing process unless you know what you're healing from and you can start the healing process, but it's very helpful to kind of get it on the table. There it is. This is the reality of what we're dealing with. And so where do we go moving forward from here? Right.05:52I think one thing to understand, Tyler, just as we started out talking about this, a lot of times therapists really get disclosure wrong, but also a couple comes to the table and they start from the wrong place. Disclosure is almost 100% about the healing of the partner and the relationship. Okay. It's not about the healing of the betrayer.06:20Now, it's good to get it on the table. It's good to be honest. Right. But I guess what I'm saying is this is not a step for inventory. This is not built for the betrayer to be able to get it all out. This is more about the partner and the relationship starting off to actually start to rebuild trust again, right? Yes. I actually think it applies across the board, though, because there are principles in the way that a good disclosure is done that fuel a healthy recovery for the person who's done the betraying.06:54But I would say that's ancillary I agree with that. Yes. And the reason why this is important, because if the intention coming to the table is this is about the betrayer healing, it can actually change the way that you do the disclosure. Right. Brandon, let's just talk a little bit about what isn't a good disclosure and work our way into what is a good disclosure.07:23And what are the parts and elements of unhealthy disclosure and unhelpful disclosure versus what ends up being a helpful disclosure. Yeah. So I've heard many stories, and a lot of times it's something like this. The guiltbuilds up from the betrayer. The guilt builds up and builds up and builds up until finally they sit their spouse down and they say, hey, I need to tell you something.07:51And they sit down and they tell just enough to start to feel like they're getting honest, to get that guilt off their chest. But they don't go all the way with it. They hold back some things. They hold back little things. They hold back some bigger things because they're scared. I call this the trickle out effect. They trickle it out. It's a staggered disclosure, whatever you want to call it. It was really common.08:20So that's one way that causes some problems. And the reason it causes problems is because. Well, because then there's continually breaches of trust because there wasn't full honesty. It's like anyone who's been to Yellowstone National Park. They can go to Old Faithful. And how does a geyser work? A geyser works by this building up a pressure until a certain level of pressure is there, and then it has to release itself and it spews everywhere. And then it goes back down for a while and it hides and it bubbles. And eventually the pressure starts to build again. And then it skews everywhere.08:51And that kind of a disclosure is what we call death by 1000 cuts, because it's done primarily from self preservation of the person doing the betraying. It's not fully honest, but it continually trickles out a little at a time as that pressure builds, as that guilt builds. And it's more about easing the burden of the betrayer's conscience than it is about full honesty and attending to the partner who's been betrayed and to the relationship itself.09:20It's a kind of a self preservative kind of a way of having things trickle out. Yeah. I really like the way you worded that, Tyler, easing the burden of the betrayer's conscience. And this is coming back to what I was saying about a healthy disclosure is for the betrayed. And so when it becomes about easing the burden of the betrayer's conscience, then all of a sudden that's what the focus is. And you bring up.09:48Another thing that happens with disclosure is the person who betrayed. Often times they go be vulnerable. So they start to talk about these things that are really scary and really hard to talk about. And what happens is they want their partner to rescue them. They want their partner to say, Good job. I'm so proud of you. That must have been really hard. And that happens sometimes.10:17Sometimes the partner will over rescue, oh, you're okay? I don't have any feelings at all that going on inside of me. I just want to take care of you. Poor you that you have to disclose this. I can't imagine what you've been through that can happen right now. I'm not saying that some compassion for the betrayer's, fear and pain is a bad thing. But the problem is when that's the focus of it, what gets lost in all of that is the reality of what has happened.10:50Right? And so when the betrayer is expecting their partner to nurture them right after they tell them that they cheated on them, really is unfair to the betrayer. Basically, the expectation that we often term it in my groups and things is the person who's done the betraying comes back and does something right by being vulnerable or being honest, which is great. We want that to happen.11:19But then they're expecting the person who they've hurt to give them a cookie. And the betrayed partner going, like, Why would I be giving you a cookie when you just came and dumped all of this on me? And now you're saying, Well, I'm being honest now, so I should get a reward. It's like, Well, yes, it's good that you're being honest. You can't move forward without that honesty. But your betrayed partner isn't going to be the place likely where you're going to get all of those accolades for doing your work.11:50Because most of the time of a trade, partner doesn't have the emotional resources to see it that way. What they're doing is they're now holding all of this stuff that's now coming to light and going, oh, my, I don't know what to do with all of this. This is scary. And what does it mean? And so they don't have the energy usually to turn around and go like, man, that honesty is awesome. Thank you so much. Exactly. They're in the early stages of the grief process.12:21So it's denial, anger, just fear coming up for them. Their emotional mind is probably being triggered pretty well at this point, which, as it should be, right? If I go club somebody over the head and then I feel bad because I club them over the head and they're rising in pain, and I'm like, hey, you should be proud of me for feeling bad that I hit you.12:50It doesn't make sense, does it? Right. And this Tyler therapist, where we'll work with the betrayer will help them to let go of any expectation of that to be able to say yes. We're going to walk you through something that's awkward and uncomfortable and painful and hard. And we need you to just stay steady and keep being honest and keep doing it until we get it all out.13:19And you're going to desire this. You're going to want her to rescue you or whatever it is. We're just going to keep going through this so that you can continue down through that disclosure process because it can totally railroad it when all these feelings start to get, yeah, again, we mentioned this in a lot of episodes, but when shame gets in the way, it unravels connection. And that's typically where it goes is that if I come out and I'm finally honest and I share things and I'm not met with this instant like, wow, thanks for being honest.13:52That's awesome. Then I begin to doubt myself and go, man, maybe I should just live the same way I've always lived and go back into the shadows and hide and not say anything. And then shame takes a hold of it and boom, you're up. You're right back to where you started from. And that's where that geyser effect happens, because ultimately, unless I learn to live differently, it's not going to get better. But I have to see it from a bigger, broader process. That part of the reason why I'm doing this is for the sake of my relationship and my marriage, and it's going to be a longer term committed process than it is a one time disclosure.14:30Yeah, exactly. The point you just made is very important for anybody consisting of disclosure is to understand the process of it. And the first point of that process is to actually step into pain. So when you step into that pain and it feels painful, it doesn't mean that what you just did was the wrong thing to do. What you just did was the right thing to do.14:58Now we have a starting point to really start to process that pain, to work through forgiveness and acceptance and building trust again and building integrity and recovery and all these awesome things. But we've got to gothere. You got to step into that in order to that's part of the process. Absolutely right. There's a couple of thoughts here. Just a couple of other things that are coming up for me as we're talking about what makes an unhealthy disclosure. We talked about death by 1000 cuts here.15:28There's a couple of other things that I think are not helpful, but they sometimes play out. One of them is that disclosure is sometimes sort of like arm twisted out by the betrayed partner, which is like, hey, I found this thing, and then I'm going to keep twisting your arm until you say, uncle. That ultimately doesn't actually ever build trust. And it continues to still harbor feelings of distrust and unsafety in the relationship. Another thing that Tyler, I want to ask you a question about that.15:59Okay. What am I to do if I'm the betrayed partner and it feels like I do have to twist their arm in order to do a disclosure? Well, that's a good question. So it feels scary. But if you have to do the arm twisting, you're already getting some answers and you don't have to go chase any more of the answers to set some boundaries based off of where things are currently at.16:30But I don't like that, Tyler. I want to twist the arm to make sure that I don't get the answer. That my gut and my heart and my intuition, of course, and that's what we see all the time. What Tyler said is so spot on. If your partner is trying very hard not to be a transparent person, you got your answers and you come back to you and you say, okay, with this unsafety.17:00Now that I feel in my relationship, and I can't deny that I don't feel it, what do I do? What is in my control for me and my recovery in terms of becoming safe? The twisting their arm into a therapy session where the therapists then twist their arm to try to get more and more honest. The long term process of healing is actually doesn't work.17:26I remember seeing this kind of, like, funny video that was made about addiction, and it's about a guy who's got a pet gorilla, and the gorilla represents the addiction, and his wife keeps coming to him and saying, hey, there's hair in the drain, like, you know where this came from, or, hey, why is there such an order of bananas, like this big order of bananas that came through? And he keeps saying, I don't have a pet gorilla. I don't have a pet gorilla. I don't have a pet gorilla. And finally in the video, all she does is just she gets up and says, I'm out of here. I'm not playing this game anymore.17:56I'm not living with a gorilla. I don't have a gorilla as she walks out the door. But what she's doing, even though it's like a funny video that they're showing, is what she's doing, is she's actually staying true to what her gut saying and what she knows that the facts are actually lining up because there's big orders of bananas and big claws of hair in the drains. And she's just saying, I don't need to go chase it all down anymore. I'm getting enough answers to know that I need to take care of myself and I need to protect myself.18:25And that's important because if you go continually chasing that, it drives you crazy. It ruins your emotional energy, because now it's being spent in a place that never yields a result, and it leads to resentment and it leads to feelings of helplessness and being stuck. Ultimately, if you do twist the arm enough, you don't often really actually find the answers that give you peace and go, oh, yeah, I'm so glad that I feel so much better now. It's a never ending story in a never ending game.18:56There so another form of disclosure that is not helpful but happens a lot when people kind of start to finally dabble in. This idea of honesty is we call it the drive by disclosure, where the person who's done the betraying will kind of drive by their partner and drop this thing out. Like, hey, this just happened. And boom, they're gone and they're not emotionally available anymore. What they're doing is basically just like.19:25It's basically like that thing you used to do in high school where you take a poop in a bag and light it on fire and then knock on people the neighbor's door, and then you're nowhere to be seen as you go down the street. I hope you didn't do that in high school too much. But that's it, though, Brandon.19:54Is it's that like, drive by? Like, oh, I was honest. Look how good I am. I gave everything I needed to. But part of a healthy disclosure is also the ability to hold the space and take ownership for the behaviors that I've done and the choices that I made and actually attend to the response that's inevitably going to come back. And so when you do the drive by, it's good on you for being honest, but you're not quite there yet in terms of what's healthy for the relationship.20:25Yeah. Let me give the opposite one that I see is the dump truck right where I come, and I open up and it's like, man, this is my opportunity. And just, boom, every detail, every last thing, every last person I've ever thought that was attractive in my life. I was working with a guy that admitted that when he was five, he gave his five year old cousin a wedgie.20:53That's part of his disclosure. It's like, let me get it all off my chest. Boom, I dumped it on you. I feel so much better. And then the partner is sitting there underneath. I can't even make sense of all of it. It just happened. Yeah. Wow. And they try to get on us so much so that they use every opportunity to get anything that's ever been on their chest off of their chest again, that comes back to what you said earlier.21:30It's about the disclosure, the disclosure getting the burden lifted off of them, and that's not done the right way. Here's another thing, and title is probably the most common one. It's a disclosure fraught with denial and justification and blame. So it's things like, well, I was really stressed at work. We were disconnected.21:57And that's when I contacted that woman. We hadn't had sex in a month. And I got on the Internet and I ended up in a chat room or it's minimized. We only had oral. There's just a few messages back and forth, just a few messages. So we're not talking about the messages that you sent.22:27We're talking about how it was just a few when we go through the disclosure process with the client, we go word by word, scrubbing out any denial and just getting to the facts, the facts of what happened, the facts of what are with zero interpretation of those facts. Because in a disclosure, we don't need to know the reason why. We just need to know what has happened.22:58And the betrayer oftentimes brings their shame to the table. And they say, yeah, but I've got a shame screen here in this disclosure because I've got to because it's so uncomfortable. And what that does in a disclosure process is it says to the partner, I'm still trying to be dishonest. I'm still trying to be fake, manipulative, whatever, while I'm trying to get this stuff out.23:23At the same time, in addition to the feeling of being dishonest, it also negates one of the biggest things that leads to healing, which is accountability. So there's a couple of things that I think people who are listening to this right now are going to be thinking, some of the people who have done the betraying are going to say, yeah, but my feelings were that way. I was feeling neglected or I was feeling this or I was feeling that. Like, why wouldn't I want to share that? And that's a valid question.23:52And I would say that for the sake of the disclosure process, that's usually not the place to share all of that, because it sounds like all of that denial you're talking about, it doesn't mean that eventually in your relationship, you're going to have to actually come to grips with the fact that there were reasons why you guys were disconnected. And there needs to be a healthier way of finding that connection. So that's the one side of it. The other side of it is on the side where that disclosure starts to happen.24:22And it's not just the denial I want you to explain, Brandon, you kind of use some language that I think our listeners just need maybe have some dots connected a little bit, explain how denial and that minimizing that, leaving out details that whatever else it is, is connected to what you called the shame screening. Explain that a little bit. Yeah.24:47So first off, just side note, I'd say to all the partners who go through disclosure process, I say don't focus so much on the words that are said. Focus on the heart of where they're coming from. Are they trying extremely hard to be as honest as they possibly can be? And yeah, they might genuinely accidentally leave some stuff out, but are they trying extremely hard to be honest and you're just trying to get a feel of that?25:17It's going to be more important than the words for sure. Right. And so it's more important than the little intricate words that they say. And so if you're going through that disclosure process and it's like, Yuck, I hate hearing that. But, man, they really tried to be honest. That was a successful disclosure. So back to your question, Tyler. Shame screening is when I feel like I'm bad or not good enough or I'm unlovable, I start to do all these things to try to look like I'm okay.25:53So I moved toward my shame, meaning I'll Act really good, I move against it. I get aggressive, I get mean, I move away from it. I omit things and I avoid things. And so when those shame screens come into a disclosure, when you're on the other end of a shame screen. So, Tyler, if you were shame screening me right now, you might think that it's working. Yeah, Tyler, you're a good guy. Yeah, I can see that you're a good guy. Sure.26:23But in my mind, I can see right through it because the energy, the feeling that I get self protection. Security is shame is self protection. So, yeah, you're trying to look like you're okay. Shame is your perception of yourself through my eyes. And so you're trying to get my eyes to think that you're okay. And really, as an energetic being, I'm more seeing and feeling that insecurity.26:51And so when you bring to a disclosure process that energy of shame, then what happens is the partner is going to leave that if there's a lot of denial and shame, feeling more unsafe because there's just a lack of strength to actually face what is where we didn't accomplish the goal of a healthy disclosure.27:21If you left in a loop, I got this image of playing hide and seek with the three year old, where the three year old puts their hands over their eyes and they think they're actually hidden. And the parent has to be like, where did they go until they finally open their eyes? Like, oh, there they are. Like, that's exactly what it is. Hey, there you are. A lot of what happens with shame screens, even though it's a lot bigger than that because of the denial and the anger and the omitting and the minimizing and everything else that goes on.27:51So, yeah, okay. So, Brandon, we've kind of outlined some things that maybe aren't healthy. Let's talk a little bit about some principles that are involved in a healthy disclosure and what that process actually might look like. So as a therapist, obviously, I'm biased here, but I believe that the principle of getting help outside of yourselves is a good thing.28:25So I'm a big believer in getting a professional, a professional who knows what they're doing to walk you through a process. So if discovery, there's a difference between discovery and disclosure. So discovery happens. And it's like, oh, there's something that has happened. There's something wrong. There's something bigger than we know here going on in our relationship instead of going through the dump truck instead of going through the hoop on the front porch.28:58The Dragonfly called it. Yeah. You pump the brakes and you contact a trained professional, and you go in there and you say, I wanted to go through a disclosure process so that's one of the first principles is to reach outside yourself and get professional help. The second principle is to forgive yourself for doing it wrong, because most people do it wrong at first.29:28They try it. It didn't work there's. Trust hasn't been rebuilt. You can do a redo, you can get a reset, and you can go through it the right way. Now, one of the first things I do, Tyler, and I don't know if you do this, too, but when we start a disclosure process, it takes, on average for me, sometimes longer, maybe three weeks to a month. Sometimes longer. But longer can be problematic, and we can talk about that later.29:58I actually got a rift with a therapist once over that. But the reason why it takes about a month is I'm doing a couple of things. One of the first things I'm doing is assessing and building assets for recovery and self care for both parties. Okay. So who's your support system? What are you going to do for yourself? Care? How do you regulate emotions? How are you going to process this pain?30:28Okay, so let's make sure all of those things are intact and in place first. As we go into this disclosure process, we set up things. We set up things like space and time, like, hey, do you have your hotel set up for the next two nights? Do you have your babysitters set up? Are you going to go to dinner with your group members? Those things are set up knowing that the appointments on a Tuesday or on a Thursday or whatever.30:59And this is for both parties, by the way. It's not just now the betrayer. I do say this, if you can't find a babysitter, then step up for her. I know it's hard. I know you're going to be in a lot of pain, but show that you want to give space for your partner. Right. So we do a lot of ground work. We do a lot of behind the scenes selfcare set it up work.31:29The next thing we do is write it out. So chronologically, write out your disclosure. And the reason for that is so we can go through what I call the scrubbing process. And we're not scrubbing out things content. We're scrubbing out denial. And so I'll get in there. If the wedgie parts in there, I might say, I don't think you need to put the wedgie part in there.31:54I think you're okay, that was when you were five with your whatever or, man, you got a lot of just in there. Well, it was just this or it was just that. Let's look at that. Let's get those just out of there. It can be meticulous and it can be annoying. But what will happen is the person who's doing the disclosure starts to grasp the principle behind what we're doing, which is we're removing that shame and getting down to the facts.32:27Okay. So we go over that. That takes two or three weeks. Usually they write it out two or three weeks. We get down to the facts of it. No, I'm liking what you're saying so far. Anything you'd like to add, Tyler? So then comes the day of the disclosure, and I call it the colonoscopy of the healing process.32:55It's something that nobody really wants to go and have done, but it's really healthy. So I warned the couple, like, look, this can be probably uncomfortable. Okay. So, Brandon, before you get into the day of disclosure, can you explain sort of like what the process is for the other side, for the betrayed side in that same time period?33:28Yeah. So I'm doing a couple of things with them. So all the stuff that I said in terms of gathering recovery, capital and that system is team, successful, emotional coping, self care primarily. Yes. I'm glad you reiterate that. The other thing is educating and setting expectations. So we'll talk about digging for details.33:55We'll talk about accepting their emotions as they come. We'll talk about their intuition and their gut feels like what I talked about earlier. As you listen, what are you paying attention to? And we'll talk about boundaries that they have according to how safe they feel, so that they're ready to assert themselves in self care, not in control toward their partner, but in self care if they need to, to make sure that they are as safe as they possibly can be.34:29So they're geared up. They're geared up and ready to go. They're not geared up to attack or anything like that. I do allow for a little bit of questions in the disclosure process, but the questions, I will regulate that a lot in the process, because if we start going down certain rabbit holes, the fear cycle can amp up right there into the disclosure.34:55So I'll explain that as to why I'll cut certain things off or let other things go if there's questions being asked. And it's interesting, Tyler, I've had disclosures last for three sessions. We've had to come back, and I've had disclosures last for 20 minutes. They go kind of in different ways. Every relationship is different and different things have been done. And there's more to disclose or less to disclose.35:27No. So just one other thing. Do you do anything kind of like with the betrayer? You do some formal things where they create their history of the acting out that's going to be disclosed. Do you have them create anything else that's based off of other principles? And do you do the same for the betrayed side going along with everything that you're saying?35:50I'll have the betrayer create not only their history, but also create some other statements based off of the principles that we're looking for, which are accountability, humility, empathy, and understanding commitment, that kind of stuff. And so they'll not only have their history, but they'll also have developed something they are going to express that's related to those principles. We call it an impact letter, and we call it a clarification statement or an empathy letter.36:22And then on the betrayed side, we also not only help them figure out what questions they may want to ask, but also help them create a way to articulate their own experience in the process. Yeah, kind of like an impact letter, an impact statement. But it's more than just like, hey, here's how you ruin my life. It's like, these are the real effects in my life. These are how I'm feeling. This is what I'm hoping, and this is what my plan is as I try to move forward.36:54So it's done in a sense, of the reason we're doing the disclosure in the first place is that we're trying to get everything to the surface so that we know what we're working with to try to move forward. It's interesting you bring this up, because I do all of the things that you just said. I don't do them in the disclosure process, so I wouldn't call them that's intentional.37:23And maybe it's something that we do different a little bit. What I don't want. So the colonoscopy is just basically the full history of all of the acting out. Yeah. Okay. I don't want to follow that up immediately with some kind of statement letter that's like, this is why I have so much empathy for you.37:54Because sometimes the partner has a ton of anger going on sometimes, and they're just like, I don't want to hear it. Screw you. I'm not in the mood to have you tell me how wonderful you are for how much you love me right now. And so instead of that right now, let's pump the brakes. Let's go through our self care plan. Let's process through, call somebody else and process some emotions here and take some space from each other.38:27And then we come back, we do impact letters, and we do all of the things that you just outlined. I like considering that part of the disclosure process, Tyler, I like what you're thinking. It happens differently for each couple. But I think it's important that both sides get that attention. And sometimes you can't really give an impact letter when you've just found out certain things for the first time.38:55So sometimes that does come in the aftermath, or you're not emotionally in the place where you want to share your side of things after you've just heard these things. And again, being sensitive to what the needs are of each person, that's part of what a therapist is supposed to do is figure out how the pacing of all of those things should be. Tyler, I had a disclosure that I went through. It was a great disclosure process. It worked really well.39:25We had like an hour long session scheduled. It went 25 minutes. And at the end of it, she yelled at him. And then she turned to me and she said, Why the F do you do this for a living? This is awful. And then she stormed out the door and slammed the door and left. He collapsed on my couch and sobbed.39:55He was just sobbing in his shame and his pain. And I actually gave him a hug. I know his therapists were not supposed to give him a hug. I gave him a hug. I actually cried with him a little bit. He just sat there and let him be inpain. But I was right there next to him for the next 20 minutes. And that's a long time, 20 minutes of intense emotion there with him.40:25It was a beautiful disclosure process. And she came back and she came back to therapy, continued doing her work. And that's where her emotions went, was to anger and disconnection. And that's exactly what she needed right then. Right. So this isn't how every disclosure goes. I've had disclosures happen where the person who's betrayed is so thankful they go, oh, well, that's it at the end of it.40:52Right. The whole spectrum, what you're saying is that it could be anywhere from it doesn't always go that way from the one example to the other example or anything in between. But there should be room and space for it to go wherever it's going to go. Yeah.41:20My first intention behind it is to get out the facts is to leave things on the table because that has to come out in order for anything else to be moved forward on. And if your one client says, how the F do you do this for a living?41:35And slams the door and walks out, what she got was she got the honesty she needed finally, and she got devastated by that honesty, and she needed some time and some space away to go, let those emotions process and move and to finish this story. She divorced himself, came out in that disclosure that were shocking.42:05And he was honest. And from his point of view, he still did the right thing. He still did absolutely the right thing for her and for his relationship. And the relationship ended as a marriage. They still have a relationship. It was necessary. What it did is it brought to the surface exactly the details that needed to be there for people to make decisions.42:34Yeah. The prolonged suffering went away once that happened. Well, Tyler, we could go on and on. I think there's still other principles to disclosure here that we're missing, but I think we can come visit this topic again. If you have questions about this, don't be shy to ask us a question.43:00We'd be happy to bring it up in a later episode or come on as a caller. We'd love to have you any specific little questions you might have. All right.