#124: Can It Be Betrayal Trauma Even If It’s Not Sex Addiction?

00:00Can it be betrayal, trauma, even if it's not sex addiction? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your success with Real Recovery.00:33Okay, Brandon, we've got a really good call around today. It's going to be an interesting discussion. How did it go for you this weekend? What do you mean? Well, this weekend was nuts.00:48Yeah. What went on this weekend? Well, I went to a youth conference on Friday night and slept on a concrete floor with, like, 20 boys screaming all night around me. That was awesome. Then I went to ski school with my kids on Saturday, so I was dead tired from that night. But I got to tell you, I was up in the mountains at Brighton at night.01:16Snow was good. It was just so nice. I got home from ski school at 11:00 at night and turned around and drove 3 hours to Fare in Utah and spent the day there to say farewell to our aunt and uncle who are going on a Church mission. And so, yeah, got home last night. And here we are this morning. It's a full weekend with no rest over the weekend, but an awesome weekend.01:44It was really good. That's great. Well, I just wanted to throw a big shout out to Uncle Doug and Aunt Punkin, who live in Fair, Indiana. Punkin, we love them and are really proud of the decisions that they've decided to do and the examples that they're setting for us of being people who live with conviction. And so I just wanted to throw a shout out to them really quickly before we get started. Yeah. Just an example of humility and just loving the Lord.02:14Right? Loving God. And so. Yeah, I appreciate them as well. All right. Should we dive in? Yeah, let's do it. So we've got Chelsea here with us today. And Chelsea, you've got some pretty good questions. Why don't you just introduce yourself in terms of the information that could be helpful for us to know? Ask your first question, and then we'll just have a discussion. Okay. Okay. So do you want a little background of why I'm where I am today? Yeah, that would be great. That'd be awesome.02:44Okay, so my husband and I got married about 14 years ago, and we met online. We got married five months later very quickly. We both had a daughter. Mine was five. His is two. I knew he drank before we met, but he had said he got saved, like, surely before he got married. And so he just moved in with me after he got married and he left that lifestyle or whatever. And I didn't think it was a big deal or whatever.03:12He spent the next probably five to seven years, like, sober, like, no problem. That I could tell. I felt like we had a really good relationship. And then wehad a probably pretty tragic miscarriage for us around in 2000. I don't know what year was that was. I don't know. It was like around that five to seven year Mark. And he had spent our entire marriage doing everything he could.03:41I realize now to diminish my pain, like, no conflict. How can we make Chelsea happy? Like, I just love her. I don't want to be in pain. I think I could be wrong. We haven't ever talked about this. We haven't got help from anywhere. But I think I grieve that loss very well, and I came out of it very well, but I think he didn't. And I think he saw me in this tremendous amount of pain, and he could do nothing about it, and there's nothing he could do to fix it. And so looking back at some of the timelines, that's when he started drinking, spending money, doing things behind my back that I didn't know.04:12And I found out a little bit along the way, but I didn't find out that he had been drinking until like three years ago. And by that time, our marriage is just like a wreck. We have nine kids now, so we've had seven since we got married. So just very busy family. And I had no idea who was drinking, like, zero. A lot of people were like, oh, how could you not tell? Have you never been around drunk people before? Yeah. I had no idea. He would work late and he would come home and he would avoid me.04:43He moved out of the bedroom like five years ago. I've invited him back a few times since then. He never stays. So the drinking has an issue, spending money. He's lost three businesses now in the last, I don't know, five years that have cost us like $75,000. It's just been a mess. He says he's four months sober now, four and a half months sober now, but he's not really working any type of recovery.05:13I also found out he had pursued an online girlfriend about a year ago. I recently found this out. I would have never thought that that would have been part of this story, too. I do know there's a little bit of pornography use during a couple of the years there, but nothing where I would say I believe was a sex addiction. Anyway, I just feel like there's been a lot and I think some of the things that he's done has been more like acceptable addictions and so kind of for people to take it seriously or to really believe me or whatever.05:47I feel like it's been a lot harder than if I was just like, oh, yeah, he's addicted to sex or addicted to pornography or whatever, because in the Church, those are not acceptable. You do not do that stuff, right. You have compassion for an alcoholic, right? But you look at specs addiction, it's like, no, like, Chelsea is justified to be pissed off about that, but the alcoholism is like, oh, be there for him. Is that kind of how you're feeling or.06:16Oh, it's not really that bad. Just stop drinking. Yeah, it's not that bad type of thing. It's harder to get people to really understand because it's not as maybe bad of a sin. I don't know. Right. Does it somehow feel like it invalidates your story and your experience because of that?06:45Chelsea, can you rephrase that maybe a little bit? Like, what do you mean? Yeah. So does it feel like you're not allowed to have a leg to stand on if you might feel betrayed or feel angry or sad or grief because you can't necessarily pin it to this sex addiction label like other people can doesn't feel like there's no room for your own emotions to be real if there isn'tsome way to name it.07:17Right. And because it was drinking, it wasn't like violating the marriage bed or whatever you want to say, kind of like that. Do you feel like you've been violated in the relationship, Chelsea? Absolutely. I mean, trust just in general. I've learned a lot from you guys about intimacy and stuff. I see now that the intimacy breakdown happened a long time ago.07:48I mean, I'm not blameless. I've said so many things that I shouldn't have said. I've done so many things that I shouldn't have done. I didn't even know he was drinking for a long time. So a lot of the fights I was fighting with a drunk. He can't fight with drunk. So that's just a whole nother part of it, I guess. Well, you just answered this, but I'm going to ask it. So this is, like, stupid question of the day. Okay. Do you trust him?08:21No, because it's in all arenas and there's no communication, and I'm trying to raise our kids. I home school and I have to work now because he lost all that money and business, and he's just got no compassion for what I had to go through. The reason I ask that is to get that answer from you. That was perfect. So you're falling right into my trap here.08:53Why are you in the relationship still? I do love him. He's been like, you don't love me, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Well, I don't have lovey feelings for you. Obviously this stuff hurts, but we've never even given a chance. Anytime there's been any talk about fixing this or whatever, nothing. Like, there's just nothing. It's just brushed under the rug and move on. I know he's a really good guy.09:19Like, I know the things in the beginning of our relationship, five to seven years seems like a long time to be a decent relationship. Obviously, there was things that weren't done right then. I can't do that to my kids. I know that shallow or whatever, but separating divorcing is not an option.09:49So that was the trap. I was trying to set. What I hear, Chelsea, is no trust. A lot of resentment toward him, feeling like you don't have a good reason to leave because it's not sex addiction. But what I'm sensing from you is you want out. You don't want a relationship that has all of this. It's not giving you what you want and what you need. Right.10:18But you want to stay in because look at the pressure that you're under to stay in. You got nine kids, and what you just said is, like, I would never hurt them, I would never leave. But then you're in a position where you have to just keep taking this on over and over again with a man who's not in recovery. Right. And so what option does that leave you? Just keep doing it.10:50Figure out how to feel differently about it if you're going to stay. I guess that's one option where you stay miserable. Yeah, I don't want to feel miserable. I've been doing a lot of, like, self work because, again, I think the resentment and stuff has bred a lot of bad things in me. And so I'm working on flushing a lot of that out. I'm working about what's important, what's not.11:21So figuring out a way to make it work, because I believe that, I don't know, maybe I'm stupid and naive. I believe that he can get help, and I believe that God is for marriage. And I believe something inside of him loves me still. And I believe absolutely 100%. Childhood trauma plays a giant role in what he's going through.11:48And for him to address that. I can't even talk to him about that. But he had some sexual abuse from his sister as a very young child. His house was filled with pornography, and he was told through the public school his entire life that he was worthless and he'd never make it anywhere. So I have compassion for him in those areas. I don't think he's a loser. I don't think he's worthless. Compassion doesn't require not having boundaries yourself, Chelsea.12:20Amen to all the things you just said. I believe God believes in marriage. And I believe your husband is probably a good soul, a good person and a good man. Right. With a horrific addiction thing going on. Right. But again, we're coming back to this place of Chelsea needs to sacrifice herself because he has this addiction thing. And it's interesting that you say he won't even touch talking through his trauma with me with a ten foot pole.12:51Right. So the question is, being sober for four months is awesome. That's the first step. That's great. But is he going to go address the actual roots to this issue? Yeah, I want to just go along with that, Brandon, because I think, Chelsea, you started to say some things that could be helpful to you without realizing you just did. And here's what I'm getting at, is that too often, like, you come to a therapist or a treatment group or something, and you start comparing your story to everybody else's.13:23And in this world, it's like, okay, well, he's not a sex addict, so I guess I probably shouldn't feel the way that I do, even though he's using, which, by the way, Tyler, I don't know if I believe that. What I would say is that on one hand, it doesn't really matter how you label it when you can see that. Let's just take this whole pot of acting out and let's just call it spending money, inappropriately alcohol, sexually acting out, video games, anger.13:56Let's just throw it all in the same lump thing and just call that acting out. Okay. Here is that the pursuit to numb and avoid is an unhealthy form of coping. And I don't care if you call it an addiction or not. It's causing everything else in life to suffer. And so it doesn't matter if he's like, I'm not a sex addict.14:22I don't care is your lying and hiding and acting out with alcohol and pornography and other women and spending money is all of that leading you to a place in the big picture where you get to hold on to the things that matter most? And right now, the answer is no. The answer is it's causing everything to unravel. There's no connection. There can't be any trust in the relationship until those things are addressed.14:55And so, Chelsea, you were starting to say, well, he can't even touch his childhood trauma. He's not touching the dishonesty piece, like four months of sobriety. Okay, good. That was a good hard fought battle. Sobriety from alcohol, if that's true. But none of the other stuff is being addressed. And until that stuff is being willingly addressed, that's going to be really hard to rebuild trust. Yeah, I agree.15:22So where Brandon is going with this is that and this is where I think a lot of people fall into. The mistake is that they get stuck in the acting out and defining labels and terms and whether or not it's called an addiction or whatever, when in reality, all you need to focus on is what are some principles that I care deeply enough about to start setting some level of boundaries around. And I don't have to necessarily leave my marriage inorder for that to happen on a smaller scale.15:52So do I value trust? Do I value effort? Do I value the practice of compassion? If I value those things, that's where I can start to set my boundaries instead of, like, going, Well, I don't have a leg to stand on because it's not really technically a sexual addiction. Yeah, I think boundaries is a big issue with me, and I don't really know how to do it.16:23I don't know how to do boundaries in this situation because it comes to, like, money and kids. People are like, oh, you need to separate your bank accounts and stuff like that. And I have a lot of fear around that. They're like, you just need to make the schedule for the kids. And he just needs to buy by it. I'm like, but they're his kids, too. I can't just be like, oh, do this or do that. Like the whole idea of I can't control him.16:47But yet if I'm doing these things with our shared things, like our house, some of our time, our money, our kids, those are the places I don't know where boundaries, Chelsea. Nine kids. Amazing. I don't know how you do it. Four kids is enough for me, right? But divorce is a viable option for me and my relationship with my wife.17:19And my relationship, I feel like, is really good. I love my wife more than anything. And I have no desire to divorce her right now. I have no desire. But divorce is an option, and divorce is an option for her as well. And this goes against everything. Tyler, what were we taught as kids about divorce? Basically, you just don't do it like God doesn't want you to. You don't do it. It hurts the kids.17:49Now, I'm not planning on divorcing, Jenny. That's not what I'm planning on. I don't think that's where this will go. I think we'll be together forever, all those things. And divorce is an option. Now, why is divorce a healthy thing for me to have as a possibility or a reality in my life? Well, I think it's so they can't just run you over. I don't know. Yeah, it comes back to self respect.18:20It comes back to me. And even, like, if she is abusive or if she is breaking certain boundaries of mine repeatedly without a desire to shift or change, I need to be able to be honest with her. Your resentment, Chelsea. Let's not look at that as a bad thing for a second. Let's look at that as something communicating to you.18:49It's your inner soul that's speaking to you. Let's look at it that way for just a second. Okay. And what's your resentment saying about what's happening in your marriage? That is bad. It's not working. This isn't cool. Are you worthy of real love and intimacy and connection?19:23I guess that's difficult because, again, what is my part in this? You know what I'm saying? I didn't cause him to drink. But I do know that in those first good years of marriage, I had some controlling tendencies, like I control the money.19:40And I guess I've kind of rehashed it a little bit. I think control in the sense that I just did everything and he gave no pushback. Stop for a second. That's not the question I asked. Look what you're doing with it. You're going to my shit stinks, Brandon. And so who am I to come back to him and speak to him what my resentment is telling me, right? And the fact of the matter is, if you're breaking his boundaries, then hopefully he'll step up and say, hey, Chelsea, you being controlling and doing these things.20:14That doesn't work for me. Right? Let's work through that. But just because you weren't awesome in a lot of ways doesn't mean that you now should tolerate. And to be honest with you, I don't use this word lightly, as Tyler knows, but an addict who's not really working recovery and wanting his spouse to just hang in there with them, that's an abusive relationship. It's an emotionally abusive relationship. So, Chelsea, please tolerate this emotionally abusive relationship because you sucked, right?20:46That's just another reason for you not to be boundaried that you're telling yourself again, I can't, I can't step up for me. Do you hear that? I think so. He feels like I emotionally abused him, too, though. He should have some boundaries around that. So you don't resent each other and stay together in a terrible relationship. That's what Brandon is getting at here.21:11So Marshall Enagan, who's the founder of DBT, she outlines kind of three key principles that we operate in relationships. For the first one, of course, is that we're wired for connection. We want attachment, we want love, we want support. We want to feel connected to people. The second one is that we have to maintain our self respect. And the third thing is to get what we want. And what people don't understand is that the best relationships are where I'm constantly balancing all three of those things inside the relationship.21:44So too many of us step way into like, well, it's all about connection. So I can't have a voice, I can't make waves. I can't cause any problems. And if we lose ourselves, we actually have nothing to give to the relationship. And so we have to also be balancing at the same time saying, if I want to be able to give to this relationship, if I want to be able to actually contribute, I have to maintain myself respect, which means I now have to be able to know who I am.22:16I need to know what my values are. I need to know what I'm willing to do to protect those values and be sensitive to the other person as I protect those values. But Tyler, as an addict, comes in, if it's me, my spouse and my addiction in this relationship, then what I need to ask of my spouse is to sacrifice and give up her self respect so that we can continue if the addiction stays in a relationship.22:49But that's what we're saying, Brandon, is why not set the boundaries around the addiction and say, I see you. I see that you've got your childhood trauma. I see that you can't take ownership for things. I see that you're scared. I see that you're vulnerable. I can see how hard this work is for you. I can see that I've done things that have been abusive in the past, and I'm going to work on those things because those aren't helpful to us either. But what isn't okay is for your buddy over here, your addiction to set up shopping, the extra bedroom.23:21But there's a reason why, Tyler. And here's the reason is because if I really say that it's not okay for you to have that buddy, your addiction in the extra bedroom, there's a feeling from a partner that's, like, I actually think he might choose his addiction over me. If I put this line in the sand, I'm scared because I got nine kids and I got this life. And if I really get strong, Yikes. This could lead to divorce. But it's not.23:48Chelsea, I know we're talking about you with you right here, but, Chelsea, that's not you not choosing the relationship. That's him choosing hisaddiction over a healthy relationship when you get strong. Right. And you think that starts with self respect for myself. Yes. So you think that I don't have any self respect for myself, honestly. Right. I think you sacrifice yourself to preserve the relationship with your husband, and you've done it for a long time.24:22And a telltale sign of that is resentment. And then you'll start to have physical symptoms, you'll start to have some depression or anger issues, and all kinds of stuff will start to come out because he's taking a giant piece of you and you're not congruent with your truths, with God in your relationship. And so what do you think, as I'm saying, that, Chelsea, how does that make you feel?24:53I don't know. Is that hard to hear? I mean, it is because this journey has been extremely confusing because I always said, I just wish you did this stuff in front of me. And so I always thought I was doing the right thing.25:20Yeah. I mean, it's something I really haven't thought about. But it's that dilemma that you're in. It's so hard. Right. Like the right thing might be long suffering and trying to have compassion for him in positive regard and forgiveness all the time. Right. On one hand, that might be the right thing, but on the other hand, what Tyler and I are saying is, like, is that really the right thing?25:47Sacrificing your truth and your self respect and setting that example to your kids as well, like showing them. So it's a tough dilemma that you're put in as a spouse of whether it's a sex addiction or alcoholism or whatever it is, you're putting that tough dilemma. Right. So where do you go? Yeah. Is there a way to meet in the middle? That's what you're looking for, right. That's the goal. So where it tends to go is it goes one of two directions.26:18Either it goes to I set up a total wall, and I don't let anybody in. And I just keep my self respect come hell or high water, and I will be lonely and miserable the rest of my life. Or it goes to what Brandon is describing, which is like, yeah, that one's, okay. That they stepped on that value and that value and that value because this one value of staying in a marriage is the biggest one of all. So I'll just do that. But now I won't like myself, and then I'll resent him, and then I'll just be miserable until we die. But at least I will have not gotten a divorce.26:49The funny thing is that Brandon is saying this. I think both of us honestly believe that in most cases, when you come to a place of knowing, divorce could be an option and that you'd be okay if it was, you're way less likely to have a divorce. Because what ends up happening. Yeah, I see that. What ends up happening is that now we talk about this all the time in the podcast, but we allow ourselves to be treated right up to the level that we believe we're worthy of being treated.27:18So if my husband's going to lie to me in my relationship and I don't do anything about that, then really what I'm saying is honesty is really not that important to me. It's just important enough for me to complain about it and be resentful. But I don't want to do anything about it. The middle ground is you're able to go to your partner and you're able to say, I see you. I can see that these behaviors are happening. I can see that you must be scared.27:48You must be this. I actually want to be in a relationship with you. I don'twant a divorce. These other principles are also just as important. And the only way that we can both have what we want is if there's honesty and Fidelity and if there's effort. And I'm willing to do that, I want to do those things because I value those things. I also need you to be doing those things. If I'm going to choose to X, Y or Z, whatever level of connection I want to put myself in at.28:19Right. So there is room for the middle. It has to be all or nothing one way or the other, but there has to be honesty with yourself about what those real values actually are. Well, I just feel like what you said almost is like not really the middle because it's going to push you one way or the other.28:49Like no matter what, there's no middle. Yeah. So there's no way around something. And it's this. The middle is you having tons of compassion and love towards your husband and tons of compassion and love toward yourself at the same time. And the middle is sitting in that space. But there's a requirement. And here's the requirement, and it's faith.29:16It's showing up in that space and letting go of the outcome, and it's letting go of control about what happens from there. And so there's no way around that, Chelsea, if you show up honest and authentic and loving with your husband, there's no way around the fact that he might not choose you and that he might abandon you and you might not stay married. I wish there was another way. I wish I could tell you like, hey, I guarantee you that if you show up in that strong place, he'll choose you.29:48I can't, right? And that's the tough reality. And that's where you hand it to God and say, Where am I going to land? What's going to happen if I show up? In truth, we know that God wants you to show up. In truth, we know that. I think that's obvious. We don't know where that ultimately that's between you and God.30:13And I think sometimes the focus becomes me and my partner, and then in a sense, my partner, my partner becomes the false God instead of what the truth is. And so Brandon is really getting at this concept of surrendered, Chelsea, because you're right. If you sit down and say, okay, here's what I desire and here's what my values are. You said, I'm being pushed one way or the other. The truth is you're not being pushed one way or the other. You're in that space.30:40And then the choices of your partner will then lead to your decisions. And ultimately, it's going to be you're, the deciding being, and it ends with you with a choice, but it's going to be based off of principles and values and an invitation. So now the best boundary is set with this invitation to say, I want something with you. We got nine kids together. I want connection.31:09I want support. I want us to have a good relationship with each other, and it's going to be based off of these principles. Are you with me? And if he says, Now I got this other dude staying in the other bedroom, and I think I'm just going to choose him instead. At that point, then you get a chance to make a choice, and you can be like, all right, but Tyler, I do want to say, like, in the process of that, of what you're talking about, Tyler, there will be hiccups.31:41So at times he'll choose the addiction. But really, what I'm getting from you, Chelsea, is the vibe is you'd be in this thing through thick and thin, and you are. You just want the effort to be in process. And right now, you're notfeeling like there's a lot of process happening. So it's really frustrating, but you'd be in it. I think you could probably honestly go to your husband and be like, I don't want to go anywhere, and I'm going to be here, and I just want to support you, and I'm going to work on my own stuff.32:14And I haven't been totally healthy all the time either, and I'm going to go to work on that myself. And that's what you really want. And if he were to go and have a hiccup and let's say he went and drank today, and he came back and he was like, oh, I screwed up. I drank today. I'm not going to hide anything from you anymore. And I know that's really hard for you to hear. Here's my new plan. This is what I'm going to do that would be processed on the right side of you that would probably go, Dang, that sucks that he drank. But Whoa, that's the first time I've had honesty in a while.32:47If he acted out some other way, I mean, there has been a lot of there has been a lot of that, too, though. There's been a lot of, okay, I drank. Okay, I'm quitting. I drank. But there's no recovery with it. There's never been like, that's the difference. So recovery comes with not just lip service, but effort. So if he was coming back to you and saying, hey, I drank, and here's who I talk to, and here's what I'm going to set for myself tomorrow so it doesn't happen.33:15And here's what I'm doing to deal with my childhood stuff, that would be recovery work. But if he comes back and says, oh, I drank, I don't know what happened, but I won't do it tomorrow, and then he doesn't do anything different. That's not recovery. That's not right. His recovery, he thinks, is very self paced. He thinks he's read all the books on addiction, and he thinks that he won't go to therapy. He won't go to, like, any addiction groups or anything like that.33:46But he'll meet with a mentor once a week from the Church who they don't really know us. I mean, nobody really knows us there. And then he goes a men's Bible study, and he's like, I'm doing these other things. I'm journaling, and I'm not saying those things aren't bad, but again, I just don't know how that will ever lead to real recovery. You got to go down to the pain, to the trauma and process through that and to shift those faulty core beliefs.34:19Your intuition, Chelsea is saying, I know he's not quite getting there. Like, really? I call it the cave you fear to enter. Like, stepping through that cave because the shift won't happen that you really desire from him unless he's willing to do that. It's frustrating because there's this part of him that's like, I want to work recovery. I want to be good with God.34:48I want that. And you see the goodness of the man there that does that. But there's this other part of you that's like, yeah, but that dude there doesn't go trust with me, right? That dude, there relapses every three or four months and lies about it. And that's not enough for me. He doesn't want me part of anything. He just wants to work his recovery, which is another sign of not recovery.35:15That's the equivalent of dealing with a three year old when they can't tie their own shoes, yet they sit there and stare at you go, Me do it. Me do it. Me do it. That's not like stepping into your full manhood, right? It's like, okay, they don't want to learn a new way. About ten minutes later, they're crying because they can't go outside and play. And then you're like, youwant me to help you tie your shoe? And they're like, okay, fine. Right. So there's principles in play here.35:42So real recovery warrants humility, which means an acknowledgment of my strengths and my weaknesses. It requires openness and accountability, which is honesty and transparency, and then it requires effort and work. And what you're getting right now is some level of humility once in a while with some lip service. And it sounds like some level of effort and work, but not full all in willingness.36:13And that's what's probably driving you crazy a little bit. Right, Chelsea, my guess, and I hate to do this right towards the end of an episode, but I'm going to do it anyways. Just my guess. And Tyler, I want your opinion on this, too, is that there's something out there that's big or has been going on for a while that he's really not wanting you to see that he's hiding.36:43And why would I say that? No, to scare me. I feel like I found out everything. Yeah. Why would I say that? I'm saying that because there's a lack of disclosure and transparency, and so it's trying to put this bandaid on something and move forward without dealing with what is it's interesting, as you've talked about, kind of him connecting with the past girlfriend and he looks at porn once in a while.37:18And I would really like to know the extent of the acting out sexually. If there's also lies going on around the alcoholism and money and other things. My guess is there's lies going on around other things that you don't know what you don't know. And I'm not saying this to trigger you to freak you out, but in order for healing to start, then things just need to get laid on the table. Just boom, let's put it out there so we can start.37:49And then that will take the pressure and the shame on him so that he can start to move forward in his recovery. I'm sorry that triggers you, Tyler. That might be true, Brandon. There might be some big secret in terms of behavior that hasn't been disclosed. It could also be that, you know, the story of the behaviors and the focus has been on the behaviors themselves. But the issue is that there's still a pattern of dishonesty and hiding and doing things on my own which all lend themselves to not getting better.38:21So it might be a pattern itself where it's more like, yeah, there's a habit here of deception and hiding that has been ingrained for years. Because that's how I protect myself from my shame being seen. If I'm not committed at a bare minimum. To overcoming that habit. I'm going to be in trouble. Because no matter how long I stay sober for. It's only a matter of time until I'm numbing out with something else. Because I haven't learned how to reach out and cope with my emotions properly.38:50So it could be some big disclosure thing. It could also be the pattern of dishonesty. That is the problem that needs to be worked on. Even though you know all the details. Right? Yeah. And ultimately, it's because he doesn't even love himself. Right? Right. I just think he hates himself so much. Yeah. I don't know.39:24We got to wrap up. But, Chelsea, I just met you. And I just want to say what I feel from you is a fiery, powerful, strong woman. Naturally, that's who you are. And it's interesting as you share your story. It's like, man, I got all this resentment. And we're talking about how you're not living in your truth.39:48And I think that goes against everything that you are built for. Like you are a strong, fiery, powerful woman. And I think God needs that woman out there in the world with your kids. And I'm sure you show up that way in many ways. But to work through this marital stuff. Might be some of the thresholds that you need to work through. To really step into your purpose and who you are. I've come across a little strong today.40:18And I think one reason is because I see that spirit and that soul inside it absolutely emanates through the screen. I think I both see it. And we both actually like it. And we don't want that stifled by addiction or whatever. By any fear. Okay. All right, Chelsea, any last words? Last thing you want to say? Thank you.40:47Thank you, Chelsea. You do have a good energy to you hear the wrestle happening inside of you. And I think you're going to be successful. Especially if you keep doing the things that you're doing on your side of things. Yeah. For those of you guys who are listening, if this ring a Bell for you, we'd like to hear what your thoughts are on it. And we appreciate Chelsea's courage to come on the show. And if you know someone who might be in a similar situation. That this could benefit, please share it with them.41:19All right. See you, guys.