00:00How do I have healthy boundaries and keep a good relationship with my child as I'm navigating divorce? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:34All right, Tyler, our women's conference is right around the corner. This might be the last time you hear about it on the podcast. It's in Hurricane, Utah, and it's happening soon, right about a month from the time of recording.00:49By the time they're listening, maybe a week or two away, there's a few spots left at this point. We would love to have you if you're the kind of person who wants to come get hands on experience with a lot of the principles we're talking about here. This is just for women who are looking to have some healing happen in their hearts and to tap into their whole hearted life that they were designed for. And I'm really excited about it, Brandon. We're going to go down to the shame.01:15We're going to attack those faulty core beliefs, and we're going to have you experience something different, something new, so that it heals you from the inside out. It's not sitting around in the therapy office with Tyler or me and just talking about your problems. It's actually experiencing something different. So it's really powerful. It's awesome. You go to Radiant Dawn conference, Dotcom, and that's where you sign up for it. But at this time, I hope that there are spots available.01:46This is going to release probably two weeks from now. And hopefully there are spots available and you can get in and make a Trek down a Hurricane, Utah, just outside of St. George. Brad and I heard someone once tell me a climate of me tell me that there's two kinds of fun in this world. There's the kind of fun where you go to, like, an amusement park and you do the roller coaster and it's really fun. And you run over and want to do it again. And you can't wait to keep going and do it again and again, but it's never really that deep.02:13And then there's a second kind of fun, which is something that's challenging and stretches you, but it's also extremely rewarding and it taps you into something deeper. And the Radiant Don conference is the second type of fund. So Radiantdonconference.com awesome. All right, Tyler, we have Jeff back to talk about navigating his relationship with his son and his divorce as well. So, Jeff, welcome back to the show. Thank you very much.02:43Yeah. If you could kind of get us up to speed, tell us where you're at, what's going on now and then ask away. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm really trying to focus on the relationship with my son. I'm still suffering from parentalalienation, and I've only seen my son, I don't know, maybe five times in eight months. He has turned 18 now and he's getting ready to graduate high school and kind of move on to College.03:17I think he's kind of suffering a little bit during the divorce, just as normal everyday process of hard relationships as they split apart. I know that's tough for him. I'm really trying to stay present and healthy for him and make sure that I don't jump to conclusions early. And I kind of assimilate the information that he tells me.03:47And I may take a couple of days to get back to him with responses, but he came to me a couple of weeks ago, and he was pretty hot and bothered from the standpoint of he is trying to secure where he's going next. Right. So he's in the middle of applying for colleges, and he really wants me to commit to paying for his College, and I'm more than willing to help him.04:17But he came out and he said, hey, these are my boundaries. I'm either going to cut you off or if you don't pay for College. And that kind of shocked me. It was like, goodness, I don't know what to make of kind of a demand like that. That's not really a boundary, and it's certainly not healthy. And I refuse to participate in an extortion scheme I'm put in between a rock and a hard place because, gosh, I want a relationship with my son.04:48I love that kid to pieces. He was my entire life before divorce here. And, yes. Was I a mesh a little bit? Absolutely. Has that helped me back away healthily and really kind of see how to navigate things with him moving forward? Yes. But I'm trying to figure out how I stand in my own integrity and values when presented with kind of a performance based or conditional based love approach, because that's what I'm getting from him.05:22Jeff, could you add just a little bit more background for us in terms of what's been the nature of your relationship with your son up until whenever the separation happened, and then what has been kind of the nature of how it's been with your son, in terms of his choice or legal issues or anything else that's kind of kept you guys more distant? Can you just explain that a little bit? Sure. Yeah.05:48I think growing up, I tried to make as many memories as possible with him, never missed an event or opportunity to spend time with him. So whether it was sports or school or whatever that may be, I made sure to rearrange my schedule, and I was lucky to have a schedule I could rearrange to do that. But I tried to steal a good love of the outdoors for him and really just give him a life experience that I had grown up, and I appreciated that.06:18And I feel like a lot of kids don't get that today. So fast forward to the divorce. Up until the day before divorce was filed, I had a good relationship with him. We'd actually gone out for burgers the night before and just had a fun time. And the next day his mom blocked my phone number. And then all of a sudden somebody served me with divorce papers. And then all of a sudden my son's a number was blocked.06:49And I'm sitting here going, what is going on? So the only communication I had with him for months was via email. And I never heard anything from him. So I would attend track meets because he was part of the track team. But once track was over, it was like we go into summer and I don't see him at all. I actually made an effort on Father's Day to go to his job, and I gave him a gift. I celebrated him because I hadn't seen him in months.07:19And so I think that's where I'm at right now is I'm in this place where I'd love to spend more time with him. I'd love to help him coach or help coach him as he kind of moves forward into adulthood. And I'd like to give him some of the tools that I've garnered in the past two years as I've gotten into recovery. I think they're fantastic tools to tackle life and situations, and I don't have that opportunity now. He's kind of stuck.07:47If we could dig in even a little further, the divorce, how did that go down? Why did it happen? What were some of the contributing factors? How did that go down, Jeff? Sure. Yeah. I've had issues ever since I was a kid.08:10Addiction kind of crept up on me over time and entrenched over my life. I had some things happen to me when I was about nine years old. And, I mean, they happened. I wish they wouldn't happen. But at the same time, I've learned a lot as I've gone through this process to get into recovery.08:36And Brandon, I remember the first time doing an intake with you, and he said, I want you to pay attention based on what you've said today as to when you start standing up for yourself and you say no for the first time. And that's when the fireworks started going off and they've gone off ever since then because I've had boundaries where I'm not going to participate. And I stated in the last podcast, my wife was my last bad habit I had to kick.09:08And I know that's a rough thing to say, but at the same time, it was never a healthy relationship. It was always one sided. I gave up myself, and that's not her fault. It was mine. So I had a ton of resentment that I had to get rid of. But as I've gone through therapy and really come to knowledge of where I was and where I'm at today, I have so much peace and happiness, and I just love to share that with my son.09:39But I can't because he won't engage. So hopefully that gives you a good background. Would you say that he's pretty close to his mother? Well, he was pretty close to his mother. Absolutely. He was also close to me, though, and I think I kind of feel bad for him because when I started saying no, the daggers came out and it was like, you better do this or else.10:08And I'm like, but that doesn't sound healthy. That's not okay. I'm not going to do those things. And if there are repercussions from that, then fine. I'm going to stand here in my own truth, and I see him in certain situations when I do get exposed to him, he is in that same situation with his mother do this or else. And it's that same performance based love model, and I can't participate in that anymore.10:39And I feel bad for him that he's kind of stuck in it. Well, when you say stuck in it, is he in a position where in order to love one, he must hate the other. You know what I mean? Right now, he's not because his mom is scorched Earth on me and I'm the horrible person that ruined everything when he presented this extortion scheme of you need to pay for my College or I'm cutting you off.11:10It was, you need to do the right thing. And I'm sitting here going, Is that you saying that, or is that your mom saying that? It's tough for me because I'm trying to see my son for who he is, and I'm trying to shelve the parts that are being pushed on him by her. Tyler, do you have any thoughts? Yeah. Let's jump into the situation you got with your son a little bit further.11:43Brandon is asking a good question because I think what Brandon is trying toget you to go is to make sure that whatever view you're taking and whatever decisions you decide to make, they should be made with a heart of peace, which means that you have empathy and understanding for the place that your son might be coming from. Even if you decide to hold whatever boundaries you're going to hold so that you're doing it is a way of trying to love and help and parent your son instead of as a way to defend your supposed honor because he's hurting your feelings, because he won't have a relationship with you.12:19If you understand where he's coming from and that there is maybe a rock in a hard spot he's in that's leading to a rock and a hard spot that you guys are in, it will at least give some perspective that would allow for the way that the boundaries you set to get set with the best chance for a good outcome and with the best chance to be able to look yourself in the mirror and have peace at the end of the day with whatever you decide.12:47Agreed. I think I have peace whenever he's come to me. I have been there. I have been able to stay present, not judge and just see him and know that this is his truth right now. And I'm trying to understand. I had a good couple of weeks where I was just assimilating the information that he had told me.13:20And I'm sitting there going, I still have love for my son. I'm still willing to be there for him, help him. But at the same time, it's like, how do I navigate between that rock and a hard place that both of us are in? Because I am looking at the long game. I want a relationship with my son. And I realize that may not be now. So let's talk about the long game for a minute.13:49I doubt it, but we released an episode this morning, actually, you're talking to a guy named Austin. And in our conversation with Austin, he was talking about this very unhealthy relationship that he has with his mother and with his father. He's your only child, right? Yes, he is.14:16Yeah. And Austin was talking about how he was the only child and how much pressure he always felt that he needed to be something or do something for his parents. And from the child's perspective, as we were talking to Austin, what was very apparent is how much his parents used him and consumed him because it looked like love from their part, right.14:49They hovered over him. They took care of him. They wanted him to do well. But every time he did well, it was somewhat of a narcissistic parenting system where every time he did well, they felt good. And every time he did good things, they felt good. And every time he was happy, they felt like they were good parents. Now, Jeff, why am I bringing this up with you? I think that's resonating.15:19And I'm about twelve minutes into that podcast. I started listening to it this morning. But my own family. That's why I clicked on it this morning. I grew up in an enmeshed family. My mom is a lot to handle, and it was performance based, loved. And then when I grew up, I picked a mate that a partner that had that same kind of performance based do this, what do you know?15:49And then we'll all be happy and validated. And it's like, gosh, maybe we could all have our own choices. So, Jeff, come back. I want you to tie it to you and your son. Okay. So when you say I'm in for the long game, a good, healthy relationship with him, for the long game, I realized that there's complications with voices of your ex in your son's head and things like that.16:21I would imagine that your son probably feels some resentment towards you and will go through a phase in his life where he feels some resentment towards his mother. And there's a difference between loving him and having your heart at peace with where he's at and loving him and needing a relationship with him. Agreed. Do you understand what I'm saying? Let me add too.16:51I think he absolutely grew up in that model, and I was part of it. It's like, hey, Jake, you need to do these things because this is what we do. And it was all hunky Dory until it wasn't right. So I absolutely was part of that model. So he's not really exhibiting just stuff from his mom. He's exhibiting what he grew up in.17:18And I'm trying to break that chain now that I realize I grew up in it. He grew up in it, and I'm trying to help him navigate the beginnings of an adult world and break that chain completely. So, Jeff, I want you to just think about this. Imagine that we're taking your situation and see if you could picture yourself being pulled up to 30,000ft above it so you could look at it from way above from a big, broad perspective and think about these two questions.17:49First, what is it that you're really wanting hunting and your relationship with your son? And second, what are the principles that are extremely important for you to try to teach your son and to help your son understand? I'm not sure I know what relationship I want with my son. I don't know if I've thought about that much before.18:19I mean, obviously I'd like to hang out with him and be somewhat friends, but I'd still like to coach him and let him make his own choices. And I really feel like he needs to struggle because he hasn't struggled before, like tiny things at school and things like that, but he really hasn't struggled. I mean, I came from a poor family, so he has not experienced any of that.18:45So when he looks or comes to me and says, you need to pay for my College, I see entitlement, and I didn't want to raise some like that. So I'm hoping I can teach him and have a relationship with him where I do back off and I say, I need to see you struggle. I'm here. I'm willing to listen. But some of these things you're going to have to go through on your own. Okay?19:13So if I'm hearing you right and make sure I'm picking up what you're saying, you're saying that what you want with your relationship with your son is there's a piece of you that would really like to just be friends with them and be close to him and be able to chat and have fun and laugh. But more important to you is you want to be kind of a person who can play the role of a guide, a mentor, a teacher, and that's what you want. And then one of the principles that seems really important to you is that you also want your son to learn the principle of sacrifice and struggle as a means to having a happy life.19:48Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, how do you know the good without the bad, right? Okay, the reason I'm asking this is because this is the beginning of how you're going to have a chance to have some interaction back with him that will be heavy on boundaries, but done from a place of genuineness and love. And if you understand what you're really wanting in the relationship, then you can go and articulate that to him.20:15And then if you also know the principles that are at play, you can stick tothe principles without making it personal when maybe the answer that you have or the boundaries that you're going to maybe set don't line up with the boundaries that he's trying to set with you. So now you're being vulnerable by saying, hey, son, here's how I see us, and here's how I'd like things to be, and here's what's important to me in terms of my role with you as a father and the things I want you to learn.20:46It doesn't really matter what his response is after that. It's going to leave you in a place where you're still grounded to the true values that are kind of pushing you into this discussion in the first place. Okay. I want to give you a scenario what Tyler is talking about, and this is kind of a different scenario. Let's just kind of analyze this together, and then maybe we'll bring it back.21:16Tyler and I see this a lot, but where a couple comes in and the guy is very kind of needy and full of shame, and so is trying to take care of everything to make sure that his wife is happy. Right. And so the more he tries to take care of everything and make sure that she's happy, the more she kind of treats him like shit and pushes him away and is like, stop, just please stop.21:48Right? And so he comes into therapy and does what he thinks he should and tries to be good and tries to be the best that he possibly can in order to be a good person and a good husband, and he's in the same cycle. And as he tries harder, she pushes him away more. Jeff, if you were to look at this situation, how do you fix that? What needs to happen?22:18I mean, I can only say from experience because you literally just described my 23 year marriage. There you go. It came down to standing up for myself, no matter what the consequences were, that I made poor choices. And those include poor outcomes. And so how do I start to Peel back all of that and say, I don't want to be a caretaker anymore. I don't want to be codependent. I want to stand on my own.22:48And what does that even mean to me? It took me a while to figure that out, and then when I started standing up for myself, it didn't go well because I said yes for 23 years to everything. So if we look at that situation, what needs to happen is the person who's trying to consume the other person for their self worth needs to actually detach some and work on themselves and become strong themselves, trust themselves, love themselves, know who they are.23:25And a lot of times, what happens is this is what happens. And I actually saw this happen with Ashley and Kobe is the person is kind of a, pleaser see me. Yes, I'm okay. And they say, oh, I've worked recovery. I'm getting strong now. And they swing the pendulum to the other side. And they say, I'm strong now. I got my boundaries. Boom.23:52And they go from being a doormat to being locked behind a brick wall shield of kind of pride and aggressiveness. Right. Neither side is strength when you swing to that other side and you say, screw you. Now I got this. And I'm going to tell you. And so if you do this with your son, like, if your son comes, you it's not cool that he's giving you this ultimatum. That's not cool at all.24:21What everyone I tell, they're like, what did he say? And you didn't knock him in the head? And I'm like, no, I didn't knock him, man. But the right thing to do would not be to give him the money. And the right thing to dowould not be to knock him in the head. Right. And say, screw you. Like, what? Yeah. See, there's the voice of your mom. Neither side of that is actually healthy or helpful.24:52And it comes back to what Tyler was just saying. When you show up as a healthily attached human being and father, you understand your role as a father is to see your son to love your son where he's at, but also set an example of masculinity and strength with him. When I say masculinity and strength, I'm not saying that jerk guy. Right.25:17I'm saying masculinity and strength of I can totally be boundaries and I can be okay if you're upset at me if I don't pay for your College and I can still love you right where you're at. Right? I can be okay if you don't want to talk to me for a while. He's how old? 17. He just turned 18 in January. If he's the only child and his parents are getting divorced, he has a right to be pissed and he doesn't know how to handle it in a healthy way.25:48And so all that pain that he's experiencing right now, instead of you trying to get a relationship with him right now and make sure that he thinks that you're a good dad and you want to just stop and in your heart love him for where he's at and try to feel some of that pain that he's going through right now. Right. Does that make sense, Jeff? No, it absolutely makes sense. I'm kind of replaying as you're talking about that, and I think I'm doing an okay job at that.26:20One book that influenced me pretty hard was called Radical Acceptance, and Emotions Are Neither Good Nor Bad, nor Evil nor Good. But as I see him occasionally and as he talks to me, I try to just assimilate that information.26:43And I may not respond to him for a week or two because, for instance, when he came over to talk about College, it was like I'm in my head going, Gosh, that makes me angry. But at the same time, I'm sitting here going, Jake, that hurts my feelings to hear you say those things. Those boundaries aren't really boundaries if you're trying to force me to do something that's not a boundary.27:14And I'm trying to coach him while I'm talking to him, but at the same time stay completely grounded and communicate the fact that, hey, I am feeling this because of what you're saying. But at the same time, how do we move forward from there? I think you're walking yourself into the way to move forward. I want to just kind of formulaize what Brandon said here so that our listeners can understand these principles as well.27:44I think what Brandon is saying is that if you understand and can get yourself into a place of empathy for your son, you're basically going to be able to say, okay, he's in a rock in a hard spot. He's got inevitably going to have some hard feelings towards me and towards his mom because we've gone and blown his life up and he didn't have any control over that. And he currently is trying to figure out this is the second part of it. He's trying to figure out what boundaries mean, and he's being taught in certain ways, and he's having that pendulum swing the same way.28:14Maybe I've had the pendulum swing, and he's way over here on this one end right now where the truth is what he did with you is a boundary. It's just a question as to whether or not it's a healthy boundary and whether or not it's going to lead towards the things that he is really looking for andwanting. And so if I understand what he's doing, this is where the dialectical piece comes in. I can validate that and say, hey, son, I love that you're trying to figure out boundaries.28:45I bet that you're feeling X, Y, and Z, and I can only imagine what it's like for you. And I'm so glad that you're here. And I think we probably need to have a bigger discussion because I don't think this is just about the College money. There's a lot of other things in play here, and I want to be here to listen to you. I want you to know your feelings are valid. And I also want you to know that your father might do some things that you don't fully agree with, but I'm going to do a lot of love for you, and we should at least be man to man able to talk about that.29:14Right. So now you're leading yourself into that discussion and broadening the scope of the discussion away from just College and away from just the blackmail and into a bigger, broader discussion of you're in pain. I see the work you're actually trying to do. Here's how I feel about the work that's happening. Here's what I want, and here's how I think we can maybe move forward in a different way. The truth is and Brandon, I want to know your opinion, too, on this.29:40But whether or not you help him with College, the answer could be right. Either way, in this situation, it's really more about understanding what kind of connection you have to one another and what connection you both have to your values. It's going to dictate whether or not you help with College. The other thought that I'm having here really quickly just to throw this in is if your son and I can relate to this a little bit.30:08I sometimes ask my wife if there are certain things that I need to create some challenges in my daughter's life so they understand what life can be like when it's hard. If your son's lived a life up until age 18 of not ever experiencing any difficulty. It's also not the right solution to then realize that and be like, oh, by the way, sun here, we're going to toss you out on your head into the cold, dreary world. You're the one who created it in the first place to not be able to be resilient.30:40So there might need to be some level of progressive invitation into growing into your manhood instead of just dropping them off at College and being like, you fend for yourself. You don't know how to go get a job. You don't know how to do anything else. But I love you, son. Call me when you decide to be a man. Right. I think I love your pendulum example just because that makes a lot of sense.31:10Right. And what you're saying there is, don't swing the pendulum so hard, back the other way and just say, you know what? I'm cutting you off because I don't agree with what you're saying. I definitely don't want to do that. I mean, I've spent the majority of his growing up life trying to help and coach him. He started his own company in fifth grade. He's a very capable kid. But what I see right now from him is absolute entitlement.31:40And I'm trying to reset that for him. And we had quite a discussion that day about unspoken contracts. I sat there and said, Jake, you have this opinion that I should be doing this right thing, and I don't even know what that right thing is. So when I do my own make my own decision. You're probably going to be disappointed and have resentment towards me anyways.32:10I think one of the issues, Jeff, that I hear that you're feeling is that you'rebeing pushed into a powerless position in that he's turning 18 sounds like the person who's willing to walk away is the person who has all the power. And he's saying, dad, unless you give me money, see you. And so you're grasping like, I want to maintain a relationship here.32:37And I'm going to say something that might be hard to hear, but there might be a span of time where just energetically and with your heart, you can love him and have compassion for him where he does take some time and space away from you, and there's nothing you can do about that. And maybe here and there you send him a text or an email and you just say, hey, I love you, I'm thinking about you.33:04But you don't force him to be your son and force him to have a relationship with you, because the more you try to force him, the more he'll probably pull that power card on you and be like, no, I can cut this off whenever I want. And if your ex is there and just really taint the waters, then it's really easy for him to walk away. It's the right thing to do. It's the good thing to do. It's all those things on top of it.33:34All right, Jeff, but do you hear what I'm saying to you? Like, what is in your power? What is in your control? Do you hear that? Oh, absolutely. I think when you started saying that, I saw the first couple of months that I was cut off from my son with communication, and I was absolutely, like, freaking out. I mean, I was like, oh, my goodness, this is the worst thing ever. I'm basically mourning my son.34:03And then I came to this place like, you don't need to be there every day with him and try and force him to have that relationship. So I find myself backing off and saying, you know what? I'll send him a text once a week, and if he wants to hang out with me, he wants to hang out with me. Do I give him a hug when he shows up? Absolutely. But I'm not seeking that upfront.34:33Like, I need this. I need this. You know, Jeff, you said something earlier. You said he says some things sometimes that hurt my feelings. And I'm going to speak in this kind of extreme way to illustrate the truth here. But why can your son ever hurt your feelings? I'm not sure I understand the question, like, anything that he does. So if he hurts your feelings, what is that indicating?35:04Basically, I'm thinking of the Flight of the Concord song. If you've ever heard that song hurt feelings, that's your assignment. Jeff, go listen to the flat of the Concord hurt feelings. Basically, what Brandon is getting at is that I think it's got roots into a book called The Four Agreements. And one of the agreements is and these are like the four agreements that if we agree to live by these agreements, we're going to have a happy life. One of the agreements is don't take anything personally. And in the book, it actually says even when people intend it to be.35:34So what that means is that if your son comes to you, he's like, dad, you're dead to me. What Brandon is saying, is that about you or is that about him? And another context. And if I couldn't take it personal, I would see it with such a different set of eyes that I would have a broadly different perspective than when I take it personal. Well, let me dig into that a little bit, though.36:06So when I tell him that that doesn't feel very good and that hurts myfeelings, I'm coming from a place of there are some emotions in me. I don't need to really react on them, but gosh, that doesn't feel good. And I feel like I need to say that, too, and to say, I'm still seeing you. I'm still listening to you. But my goodness, Jeff, I think you're being honest with him when you say that.36:33But what I'm saying is, just yesterday, my eight year old, I was out playing with my kids, and I guess I did something I didn't realize, but she turned around and yelled in my face, I hate you, I hate you. And then she stormed off and she slammed the door in my face. She's only eight, though, because she's 13.37:03But seriously, now, that's not cool. It's disrespectful that's breaking a boundary. I want to teach her how to be a respectful, kind human being who can communicate effectively. Yes. I want those things to happen for her. When she said, I hate you, did that at all affect me or my self worth or who I am as a father or a man?37:30No, not zero. Right. And so because of that, I could stay calm. I could not trigger into my shame. I could give her some space. She went and slammed the door and sat in her room for a while. And then I could go in there and I could talk to her about her feelings and then talk to her about my boundaries, about not being yelled at and those type of things.37:57But the point I'm trying to make, Jeff, is it didn't affect me on that level of I need her to be happy with me. It wasn't personal to me. Do you see what I'm saying, Jeff? Oh, go ahead, Tyler. I was just going to say so, Brandon, I can hear all the wheels turning in Jeff's head, actually, and I just want to clarify some things.38:22All right, so what you're saying, Brandon, is that if I take it personally, what that means is that there's something wrong with me now that needs to be done in order to fix the relationship so that that person's not happy with me. So that person's happy with me. And what I think, Jeff, maybe you're trying to say is there is an appropriate level of saying, Dang, I'll be sad if you choose to do those things. That's going to be hard for me. I'm going to miss you.38:50I want a relationship with you, but I'm not going to take it so personally that I'm going to turn around and then go like, whatever you say. In fact, you know what? Not only am I paying for College, I'll buy a new car, and I'll pay for the housing, too, right? Well, yeah, I can't do that. That's not even healthy. It doesn't send him. I think being sad is not taking it personally. I think I could be sad or frustrated at my daughter yelling at me.39:14But what taking it personally means is when the consumption starts to happen, it's when I need you to see me a certain way or I need you to acknowledge that I'm a certain way or whatever. And then I start into all of this stuff where I'm trying to force her to do those things, to see me a certain way or whatever, because she better not look at me a different right.39:40And what I can't do when I'm so concerned about myself in those moments and how she's viewing me and who I am and what I can't do is have compassion for her or empathy for her or acknowledge where she's at. And so it kind of ruins that opportunity. Yeah. So this applies to your son, Jeff. I'm writing tons of nuts down.40:10Jeff. I don't know if we've gotten any answers to your question yet. How are you feeling about our conversation? We're getting pretty short on time here. Obviously, there might not be a specific answer to my question. I think it's more of this, like when you guys started talking about that. Right. The book Wild at Heart comes to mind.40:38Right. Work on myself, create my own journey, and then invite him along when he's ready. Right. I think that's where I need to be. I'm here. I love you. I'll be here no matter what. That's it. And I'll be ready when you're ready to have a relationship. It's beautiful. I get this imagery of I think that's the sign of, like, a really healthy boundary is the boundary isn't a wall that shuts people out. And it's also not something that lets people walk all over you.41:07It's basically invitations into connection while keeping your values. And so in essence, you're leaning forward with your arms wide open, but saying, I'm willing to let you be you. You can make your own decisions, and I'm going to love you no matter what. And I'm here if and when you want to come and value these other things that I want to value with you. Right, Jeff? I just want to say it's easy for us to sit and kind of analyze and whatever.41:39I think being in your position is really hard, but it's going to show a lot of strength for you to just let this come out in the wash, to just watch, to see how it plays out and to be kind and patient and loving with him. He'll know your heart long term if you allow the process to happen. I believe that. Now, could he cut you off for the rest of his life? Yeah, he could. I doubt that happens. He will come back to his father and he'll say, dad, I want you.42:09I want this relationship with you. You're my dad. And as he grows up into a man, he'll see things hopefully more clearly and look at this and say, man, my dad, through all those years that I treated him like garbage, he loved me. He just stayed steady. Holy cow. My dad really does just love me, even when I try to kick into the curb.42:34Right be that dad, Jeff, I definitely want to be what's the emotion that's coming up in you right now, Jeff? I mean, you're just confirming that the path I've been on for the past year is I continue to try and navigate it, but it's definitely the right one.43:06I've never been happier, even though there are some very tough situations I'm in right now with this divorce. But having that patience, love and kindness is like, I just got to let that go and trust in God that eventually it'll come around, you know, and it's not on my timeline.43:33These are some hard things, Jeff, but I hear you're working really hard. I hear that your heart's really desire is to try to get it right. I hear that your efforts are good, and I think that you're right, that a big portion of this is going to end up being some surrender and letting go of the things that are beyond your control, too. And that's really difficult as well. So I definitely hear that you're on the right track with where you're headed.43:58And I hear that you do really love your son and some of your own kind of unhealthiness codependency and measurement kind of comes and gets in the way. But there's no doubt about it that you care for him deeply, and he's a lucky kid to have you. So, Jeff, I sure appreciate you coming and talking this through with us, and I hope it was good for you to come talkabout this again.44:29Absolutely. You guys, if this was beneficial for you in your own situation or, you know, somebody who might also be struggling with this idea of how to set boundaries and still maintain love, please share. We also love getting your feedback, so please give us feedback as to how we can be better for you guys on these episodes as well. You guys have a great week. All right? We'll see you.
