Misses and Fails

Transcript (provided by Chelsea Jones): Ty: Do you want to start us or do you want me to?Chase: You go ahead.Ty: Alright. Hey guys, welcome back to the Wholehearted podcast, here. We are out here on a beautiful Friday morning in Logan, Utah, in the foothills above my house, again. We got a little bit of rain coming down, but the air is fresh. It feels almost like being down in Hawaii with the humidity and as you guys can see, there’s no better place to come go to work then right here. Right?Chase: Even on a wet and rainy day!Ty: Yeah! Even the rain’s a little refreshing. I’m sure it’s got my hair totally flat right now. That’s all right!Chase: It’s a good thing that’s not important! One of the beautiful things that you can kind of see around us, if you’re watching the video at least, is there are clouds that we are on level with and above, in certain parts. Actually, you were saying Hawaii, but it kind of reminds me of being out on the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee where Papaw lived. So, that’s a little bit endearing for me.Ty: Brings back some memories.Chase: Yeah, it does.Ty: Yeah, it was absolutely beautiful, I bet. I wish we could stay out here all day.Chase: Yeah!(Laughter)Chase: I know at least one or two people that would shoot us for that!(Laughter)Ty: Yeah, I got a wife at home right now that would be like: “Oh, you call that work!”Chase: No, we are working, we promise!Ty: We are working, I swear it! I told her today about our outdoor office project, you know, and she’s like: “you guys are so full of crap! Now you’re going to work everyday and sit on top of a mountain and do nothing!”Chase: I mean, that’s part of the reason it’s almost good to have somebody who’s saying that’s not a thing for you. To have a good rebuttal is that you actually do the thing (1:53) and it is work.Ty: I’ve been thinking about all of the rebuttals because I know where I want to take this project, which is pretty much always being outside! So I’m always coming up with really good ideas. In fact, that goes along with the book that you and I–I guess it’s a documentary we listed to this week on the power of being out in nature. I told her about it yesterday and I said, “you gotta listen to this documentary about the three-day effect of being outside in nature!” And she was like, “Oh, so you and Chase are going camping this weekend?” (Laughter) I said, “no!”Chase: That’s the soft pitch! (Laughter) She thought you were prefacing! I mean, it is Memorial Day weekend!Ty: But today, Chase, I wanted to start off with just kind of a question for you to think about and maybe come up with any ideas. I ran into something today with my work at UPS that made me think about this as I was working .so for everyone who doesn’t know us very yet, I work in the morning times at UPS helping to get to the big semi trucks unloaded, and then the pack is loaded into the trucks that deliver to you guys’s houses. I was asked today to go into a different spot than I normally work. I typically load a couple trucks for a couple of drivers and then go home, but today they asked me to move into the semi trailer and help unload the trailers. The reason they asked me to do that is because they have an employee there that hasn’t been pulling his weight. They know that I’m not afraid to speak up. (Laughter) So, the supervisor basically wanted me to do his dirty work and he asked me to go in there and motivate this guy The guy saw me coming up to help him unload today, and he got offended. He’s like: “oh, I know why they’re sending Tyler. Everyone thinks and I’m out of shape and fat and that I’m no good.” Basically that’s what I was sort of thinking.Chase: (Laughter) If you’re being completely honest!Ty: Yeah! (3:57) I was going up there with this idea of, “okay, I’m gonna line him out. I’m going to tell him exactly what he needs to do. If not, I’m gonna get him to quit today.” Because it will be better for him, it’ll be better for the whole store… Like he’ll be able to move into a place where he will fit better. So I went up there with that attitude. My question to you is this: Have you ever had a moment where you’re so sure that you’re doing something right, only only to have it just like thrown in your face two instants later and see something be done in a totally different way that was more effective than the way you were going to do it?Chase: You know, if you give me a minute I bet I can think of something from maybe today! (Laughter) If not, if will for sure be from this week.Ty: So, that happened for me today. (4:47) If you have any thoughts or ideas on this… We got started and I was outside of the trailer and this kid, I could tell, already had a chip on his shoulder and boxes started flying out. Not like on the conveyor belt, like you see in the commercials, they were flying out! A box actually hit me on the face, and I told him, “dude, what’s your problem?” They kept coming out. I’m now getting angry and I pick up a box and throw it back at him. We’re basically getting to this box fight–with you guys’ as packages, by way; sorry about that–if it’s a size ten-and-a-half, it’s mine. So I’m starting to get amped up and I’m starting to think, “I’m going to teach him a lesson and I’m going to show him how you’re supposed to work,” and this and that and the other…Chase: By the way, this is the Wholehearted podcast! We just want to make sure you know you’re tuned in the right thing! (Laughter)Ty: Yeah, we’re not trying to hide anything here. You know, see life on our terms and the way that we’re living!Chase: It’s reality!Ty: This started to happen, so I pull myself out of the trailer and I came out. I said, “I got to catch my wits about me,” and so I took a little bit of a break. The other two guys that are in the unload with me are unloading, and then all of a sudden the other guy comes out–the one that’s not the problem–and he stands outside and he doesn’t say anything. And we’re like, “Hey! Get back in there and go to work!” And he’s like, “I’m afraid; I can’t. I’m afraid that I’m going to get hit or something thrown at me.” So then I was like, “Alright, I know what to do now… I’m a therapist, I can go and lay down a hard boundary, I can tell him all this stuff…” But I was going to do it in a sort of forceful, coercive, guilt trip type of away. And just at that moment, my supervisor comes walking up and he’s like, “Hey! Fellas! How come we are all outside of the trailer, right now? Aren’t we supposed to be unloading?” And we say, “You need to get up there and talk to the guy.”My supervisor, his credit; I mean, he taught me a lesson today. I walked up in that trailer and this furious employee, he’s feeling charged and he’s feeling like people are trying to force him out–which we kind of were–and my supervisor just talked him down for a couple of minutes and then had him leave and go sit down in the office and then he went down into the office and continued to have a conversation with him in a very gentle, but honest way, and just said, “Hey look, I can see something’s going on for you; tell me what’s happening.” This hardened kid, (7:09) he opens up and says I actually feel just really insecure because I feel like I’m not pulling my own weight and I don’t I don’t have the energy yet because this is a new job for me and I don’t have the stamina that everybody else has and then I hear people making comments about how late we’re getting out every morning because I’m so slow and so I just can’t take it anymore.” My supervisor then built a game plan with him on how to just go and give a best-effort and some different measuring sticks for how he could progress.He came back up 20 minutes later as a totally different person. He was soft he was willing to go to work, he actually was willing to carry a conversation with me in a getting-to-know-you sense, of “Hey, what are you do for a living? “What do you do for a living?” By the time we were done unloading, he was telling me all about his family’s problems and I was doing therapy in the trailer with him! (Laughter) You know, in the right way that I do therapy! I just thought, my supervisor he taught me a real lesson about the difference between coercion and power and influence. Just that idea of taking the time to actually be curious and get to know somebody instead of just feeling like you got to correct instantly.Chase: Aw man. That’s an incredible story! I actually did think of one and this is from a week and a half ago. My leader at church, who I work with frequently–his name is Peter–and he is a great mentor for me, somebody I respect and admire. (8:40) He reached out to me a couple weeks ago, and said hey there’s somebody that passed away in our congregation, I will be performing the service if you would like to come and see how it’s done. Let me show you the ropes a little bit because I’m totally a noob and I got a lot to learn so to have that opportunity is really good for me. I did not know the person who passed away; I hadn’t even heard her name previously. The things that I did know is that she was a biker, that she wasn’t actively a part of our our congregation, and she passed away while she was motorcycling. And I don’t know the details to that; it doesn’t really matter, but while I was at the funeral, she was a member of a group called The Litas.It’s girls, all-female group, that wear purple bandanas and black shirts and jeans and boots. All of them showed up. This is at a funeral home that’s kind of your typical American-furnished style: dark oak everything, really dim lit, chapel-style setting. When I walked in and saw the group, my judgments, my natural biases were firing off left and right. Man, I got rebuked hard by God.There was one moment in particular that I’ll share and this is a part of a chain of a few that happened, but the one that I think stands out the most is–I might get emotional at this– there was a man that it was his sister who passed away. So the brother of this lady, he was asked to say the family prayer before they go into the actual service. The casket’s open and everyone standing around and I didn’t know who was going to be coming up. But this man steps up and he’s wearing a big, baggy black trench coat, he’s got a big fuzzy beard, a ponytail tightly-bound…. Just real oil-slicked and, you know, he just looked like a rough individual in this instant of judgment. My first thought was: “This guy’s gonna say the prayer? Does he know how to pray to God?” Again, this is probably more than I would normally share.But, it was so amazing when he started to speak. It was with such perfect mildness and gentleness. There was love in his voice. There was a pain that he was feeling, and this pure communion that was taking place between him and God that was one of the most eloquent and magnificent prayers I’ve ever heard in my life. It was just a moment of pure glory and what prayers are meant to be. Man, I had so much judgment thinking this guy, he doesn’t ,he can’t possibly know God like I know God and what a fool I am.Ty: Right, stuck in self-righteousness. What a gift and experience, that God put a gift of a reminder of the ways that we get in their own way. That judgement that comes out, even when we are doing our best not to… What and what an awesome experience, Chase. You know, I was thinking about this in my therapy a little bit too, and I maybe you can speak to this little bit, but… How do you tune yourself up and get yourself out of those places of judgement when you realize it’s something that has to be done, or something needs to be addressed with, say a relationship, and you want to value the relationship and you think you got it right: how do you get yourself checked with that judgment and get it right sometimes?Chase: I’m not perfect at this. I’m actually thinking of a few instances that are unresolved, right now. There is a couple of people that I work with where there’s a certain type of friction between the two of us that I haven’t addressed. I’m fearful that when I do address it, it’s going to be like a bomb going off instead of, “Hey, this is where I’m coming from and I have kind of a problem from my perspective. I just want to let you know that I’m working on it on my end.” You know, some kind of good, open communication. Most of my experiences growing up and some of the examples that I had in my life, it was: “Bottle it up until pressure just maxes out and then blow up.”Ty: It’s ugly. It never goes well.Chase: It never goes well! Feelings are gonna be hurt, you’re gonna say things you don’t want to and…Ty: It’s like UPS this morning. (Laughter)Chase: Maybe like UPS this morning! But I I think there are a lot of times… Chelsea is actually really good at this with me. She’s a better example than I am in in this kind of scenario where, if she has a problem a lot of the time she will share it with me at the right time. I know this is something that you talked about quite a bit in the past is, being and drama and the drama triangle. So if your in drama–maybe you can explain that afterwards–but that’s not the best time to bring something up. So, what is the drama triangle?Ty: We can almost we could spend a few probably a few different episodes on this; I’m sure it’ll cycle through, but basically the drama triangle says that when we don’t have our needs being met the way that we think they should be met, we end up dipping back into being like a three or four year old child in an adult body. We take on different roles to try to manipulate our way into getting our needs met.The three roles are: the first one is the victim. The victim is that we take something personal, and then we feel like we’re not capable, and we feel like we’re getting picked on, the world’s not fair, and then we become helpless. Then we try to solicit, from other people, sympathy to tell us how unfair the world is to keep us stuck, instead of actually getting us out of the hole we’re in. So, that’s the victim.The second one that we drop into is something called “the persecutor.” A victim needs a good persecutor, right? (16:19) And the persecutor is the role where it’s more of the blaming roll. It’s everybody else’s fault, I can never take accountability, and then I attack people. It’s the attacking version of drama. It’s a way to try to maintain control. It turns relationships into a power-driven relationship, with the one-up, one-down kind of relationship, instead of a connected relationship.And then the third role that we cycle through sometimes is something called “the rescuer.” The rescuer tries to find their self-worth and their value by making sure all of the victims in the world are taken care of and that I’m the solution, not helping the person who’s the victim get out of their role. And then what happens in rescuer mode is then we see other people as less than us, even though we won’t admit that. And we’re always there to rescue them, but then we get frustrated when people don’t value us. And then we drop over to the victim and we cycle through. It’s just this dance that we get into with other people, trying to get our needs met, but never allowing vulnerability to let connection happen.Chase: So, at any point you could be in one of those.Ty: So, in moments, I can be in “victim” in my own mind, while I’m being the “persecutor” to my wife. Does that make sense? (Laughter) There’s a reason why I’m persecuting her, because I have to have a good reason for it because it was something she did that was unfair to me. So I’m a victim on the inside, but now I’m coming at her in a very angry (17:40), harsh tone. What drama does is, it tries to help us express in some way whatever it is we’re feeling or that we’re not getting, but we never actually get to say it or ask for it.Chase: So what, in your experience, would have been some of the solutions? Like, you can respond in a good way and not be in that triangle. But…Ty: I think for me, a couple of things that have been really helpful just in my own life, in my own practice, when I’m getting it right (not like I did this morning) is the first thing that, if we could all just adopt this as a way of life, it would really help our world… But, everybody is doing the best they can. So if I’m looking at this, for example, this kid throwing boxes out of the trailer, this was his current best response in the situation he was in to try to express himself. And if I can pause and go, “How could this possibly be his best response?” I might be able to see that underneath that box flying at my head that there’s something pushing that other than the anger. I could have stepped into that a little bit differently.Another thing that I really focus on in my work as a therapist is, I told you this on the way up, but I had another therapist give me a compliment a couple of weeks ago when he was leaving to go take another job in Louisiana. He said, “Tyler, you’re one of the few people that knows how to smack somebody in the face emotionally and have them thank you for it afterwards.” (Laughter) I said, “What do you mean by that?” He said, I don’t know what you do, but you can hit somebody–like tell them, ‘hey look, you can’t get out of your own way and you are totally ruining your life!’ And they go, ‘Yeah!’” That’s something to think about, thanks a lot! I was thinking, how does it work when it works?One of the things that I think I try to do is that I try to see how what the person is doing is not effective for their goals. so if I can pause and say well the reason your wife is not wanting to connect with you is partially because you either get very defensive all the time or you shrink away and act like a victim all the time.” I could say that be like, “Hey, stop being a pansy,” or “Dude, you are being so immature right now.” But if I’m thinking, “What is he really trying to get to? Well, he’s trying to find connection, too.” And if I approach it from the goal that he has, which is to be connected to his wife, I can say “Man, I imagine it’s really frustrating to not be able to connect with your wife the way you want to, right?” And he’s like, “Yeah, absolutely. I’m glad you get me.” And I’m like, “I wonder if your approach is preventing you from getting what you really want? When you do this and this and this, when you attack her, when you shrink away, or when you roll over your side of the bed after you persue her for sex and she doesn’t want to, is that actually helping you get what you want?I imagine that’s got to be really frustrating to be doing things that are continuing to hurt yourself. It’s kind of like putting your fingers in the door jam and slamming it shut, you know? (20:56) (Laughter) That’s so frustrating! People respond to that for some reason, I don’t know why, but a lot of times they look at me and go, “Yeah, I do!” I’m like, “Sweet, how are we going to do differently now?” So, I don’t know if that is a tool or not, but that’s something I try to do in my own mind when I’m looking at trying to approach it when I’m not in drama myself.Chase: Something that you said reminded me of a little way of living is trusting that everybody is doing their best. So it’s exactly what you were saying! I keep thinking of this principle that also ties to the book that you shared, “The Four Agreements.” So “don’t take anything personally” and “don’t make assumptions”–those are two of the agreements. But why? Why is that something that matters and how does that actually help aid in the process of communication?Ty: That’s a whole other set of podcast we can run, but I think the word that came to mind as you were talking was not taking something personally, which allows us to then see the person that we’re interacting with as a person, instead of being worried about ourselves. We can be self-centered. Not making assumptions allows us to approach the relationship or the situation with, the word that came to mind was “curious.” It allows us to be curious and to seek understanding with somebody, rather than the need to be right. I think needing to be right just gets in the way of thought. I think that was what was happening this morning for me. I needed to be right until I had somebody, very gently from a very peripheral way, just reinforce that lesson. If we’re focused on that lesson; if we’re focused on effectiveness, and the effective way to approach that situation would have been through curiosity.Chase: Actually last night Chelsea and I were doing dishes. We’re at the kitchen sink–it’s a tiny little space, and what will typically do is all I’ll wash the dishes and once they’re ready to be rinsed, I’ll yell out, “RINSE-A-ROO!” Then she’ll come on over and give them a rinse and put them in our dishwasher rack. And when I say “dishwasher rack,” I mean there’s no dishwasher. It is literally the rack out of a dishwasher that we have set by kitchen. It works flawlessly! It’s a genius on her part over at a thrift store–but I was noticing that there’s differences in how she does things versus how I do things. One of the little ones was that–and totally may be unintentional or subconsciously; maybe she did it intentionally, doesn’t matter–she’ll occasionally stack something in a way that I wouldn’t stack things. I saw it and I thought in my head, “Aw… But if you do a different, this–” You know, just certain things set all these things firing off of how to do it better because “I’m right.”Ty: She needs to do your way.Chase: Right! She needs to do it my way and I can give her an education right here and right now about how to stack dishes. Does that matter? No, not really; not at all. What I was missing though, is that she was trying to connect with me in little ways by making silly jokes or doing little dance moves or having impression that she does of whoever! It’s so funny how I can be on this single track of “I need to be right” about something petty and completely miss this awesome opportunity for connection with her. She’s throwing me a line! All I got to do is take the bait and and boom, we’re there! But it happens so frequently, that pride just comes out. That’s a monster for me and I’ve got to be right about this thing. Whenever I recognize that, hey, actually this thing is stupid, let go of it. Let this one slide and and maybe one day she’ll ask! You know? Or maybe not, and then what?Ty: It really doesn’t matter.Chase: It doesn’t matter, not even an ounce!Ty: That’s a really good, simple story. I think, as I’m sitting here talking to you today, is that one of the takeaways is that idea of–maybe for everyone who’s listening you guys add to this–in what ways have you guys had that kind of awareness come to your mind of needing to not be right, but to be curious instead? Or to have some lesson taught to you right when you’re sure that you’re right and that you’re doing it the right way? We’d love to hear some of the instances that you guys are running into as well. It’s kind of a good reminder for all of us today. Can we be more curious? Can be more gentle in the way that we approach people when we’re sure that we’re right? Can we seek understanding. Those tools are things that we just forget. They’re so simple! But, they’re very vital to having connection in our lives. Got anything else today?Chase: No, that’s it!Ty: Alright, thanks guys!Chase: Enjoy your Friday!Ty: Yeah, you too, man!