#128: Does Will Smith Lack Masculinity?

00:01Does Will Smith lack masculinity? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery.00:14Bring your stories, your questions, your success with Real Recovery very random, but we're going to go places with this that I think are very important to all aspects of recovery, both for men and women to understand.00:50This isn't just a pop culture episode here, but we're going to dive deep into it. But anyways, how are you doing, Tyler? I'm doing great, man. I had a great weekend. Got to see my daughter from College again. We got to hang out with some of her friends from College. And I realized that I'm legitimately a 45 year old man with two hip replacements because I tried to play soccer with all of them and I pretty much couldn't do it.01:16Oh, man, I just spent a weekend with you and you look old, especially because you listen, because you saw me after two days of sun on my face. You have this leathery face, but you move around pretty good. Still, you get around pretty good. I try to stay in decent shape, but yeah, I'm definitely showing my agent. I saw you hike up like a mountain of sand in the middle of the deck. I mean, you still did it.01:47We made it. Barely. You're like a Bull elk. Nothing stopping you. It doesn't matter how old you are until when? The only other option is to die. You have to make it out. So that's the way it works. I got a little bit of story to tell you in context here and to help us get into this. So we went down to this retreat down in Southern Utah a couple of weeks ago.02:18Women's treat, and it was awesome. And so I had about a four hour drive to drive home. And so I downloaded Will Smith's book Will. And this was the Sunday of the Oscars. So I spent 4 hours listening to Will Smith talk about his life. And then that night he slapped Chris Rock.02:41And it was really fascinating with the context that I had of listening to him talk and share his biography all day long and then seeing him in real time do that that night with the work that we do.02:58Tyler, I of course I'm kind of psychoanalyzing him and kind of seeing what's going on and what he describes is pretty typical in terms of trauma that leads to false identities and shame that leads to them posing and putting on that false self that front to try to be good enough and try to get love.03:28And in his book, I won't redo the whole book. You can go download it if you want. But what he talks about is some experiences where he watched his dad punch his mom in the face multiple times and how his little brother would always stand up and fight against dad and how his job was to be the peacemaker and to just try to keep everything happy and not cause anyfriction.03:55And in doing so, as he watched this domestic violence, he felt like he was a coward because he never stepped up. He tells another story of a little girl there's the neighborhood like child molester house. And he watches this little girl walk into that house knowing in his gut that something's not right and something's wrong. And he goes in his closet, in his bedroom and he cries and he hides and he doesn't tell anybody that that happened.04:28So again, reinforcing this false identity of I'm just a coward. I'm a coward that doesn't stand up. He goes on and on and talks about how he's always felt like he's just a coward. Yeah. So then all of a sudden my phone's blowing up because something happened at the Oscars and it's Will Smith walking up on stage and smacking Chris Rock.04:58Go ahead. I was going to say if we were looking at it from the context, you were seeing it from Brandon and hearing you tell that story, it would say, oh, look, Will Smith's stepping into his strength now. He's no longer going to sit passively by and watch things unfold. He's no longer going to be on the sideline. He's not going to shrink. He's actually going to go correct the wrongs from his past, so to speak. Right. And I don't know if you watched that clip of that happening, but what was the feeling of it?05:29Was it powerful, strong masculinity or what was the feel of that? Well, I think a lot of people would say that it was powerful, strong and masculine, that he was standing up for his wife and all of those things. So on one hand, I think a lot of people would say that it looked and felt strong, like he was doing the right thing, even though there might be consequences for doing something like that.05:58Could it be argued that it looked and felt weak? Absolutely. It looked weak, too, especially everyone wants to infer their own things from it. But if you look at what was happening beforehand, he's laughing along with it. And then all of a sudden he sees his wife and now he's up there, like doing whatever he did. So, Tyler, I want to dissect that a little bit because this is where I see a breakdown in actual healthy masculinity.06:29This is what I saw having heard from Will Smith all day long. I saw an overcompensation. I saw a swinging of the pendulum from a little boy hiding in a closet to, hey, I'm going to show that I'm strong and that I'm going to stand up and do something like that. But one of the big issues here is was Will Smith. And who knows? Only he knows.06:57But was Will Smith acting in his truth or was he codependently acting from a place of my wife just rolled her eyes. She's not happy with this. And I better go do this because she'll want me to do it. Right? Yeah, that's the question. None of us really know that, but yeah, that is the question. Yeah.07:23And the reason that's the question is because actual healthy masculinity is paradoxical, Tyler. But actual healthy masculinity stands on its own, yet creates polarity with the feminine. What that means is it stands on its own. It means a man and a woman in her femininity, but a man in his masculinity and who he is stands on his own.07:512ft and acts in that truth, in that confidence, not doing things out of compulsion, out of trying to prove yourself and out of trying to be enough. That is not actual healthy masculinity. Am I making sense? I think so.What's the difference, Brandon? Because if you've seen yourself as somebody who's weak and shrinks away and hides in the closet, what else are you supposed to do if you don't want to live that way anymore?08:25So I think there's a lot of things that Will Smith could have done, for example, because he laughed at the joke, but he could have walked up on the stage right then and just said, hey, Chris, I'd really appreciate it if you leave my wife alone. Or he could have used his acceptance speech to say how beautiful and amazing she is and that Chris can say whatever he wants. That doesn't change that about Jada.08:54He could have done things like that, which would have been more in his power and actually would have promoted Positivity. He said in his speech, I'm all about love and I'm all about protecting people. Right. And what he did didn't do that. Now there's a negative light on them and on her. She's getting a lot of hate, too. I don't think that he showed up in his real power there.09:23Right. And so he did laugh at the joke. He could have been honest, like, yeah, that was funny, but it's not okay. Anyways, he's a microcosm. Tyler. The reason I want to talk about Will Smith is to take this out broader a little bit, because what we see a lot of is both weak and toxic masculinity in our work. And it's interesting.09:52People look at us and they're like, oh, they're sex addiction therapists. They help guys stop cheating on their spouses and stop looking at pornography and stuff. But the fact of the matter is, is what we see day in and day out and what we really treat are men who don't know who they are, who are still searching for that and trying to figure that out, and who are still wrapped up in their shame and their trauma so much that they keep showing up weak in their lives, at work, in their relationships with their partners, and it creates chaos all around them.10:29Correct? Exactly. Brandon, I think we just did this women's retreat. And you got a lot of feedback. I got a lot of feedback. We all got a lot of feedback that was similar, which is that a lot of the women that we had just spent the weekend with, they're in relationships where they're looking for their husband to show up in a little bit more strength than they have been showing up in.10:57And that's something we see in our practice all the time, too. And so the challenge is that I think there's a lot of ideas when you talk about toxic masculinity. And I want to actually run through some of these things with you. We've made up a list of the different variations of what we call the mask or the poser that men put on sometimes. And I want to run through a few of these. And I want you to pick out the true principle and what might be there.11:25But then also how it's the masker, it's the poser, it's weakness. Okay. Okay. Does that sound all right? So the first one that I've got here is the Harley guy. This person hides his insecurities and softness in his soul behind the projection of being tough and not giving an F. So here's the thing. Is it toxic masculinity to put on black leather and drive a Harley. Not at all. Not at all.11:55If you love that, do it. Right. But the analogy is this, the toughness on the outside, yet the tenderness on the inside. You can't get to me because I'm always going to drive off on my motorcycle. It's the refusal ofacknowledging that softer side, right? Yeah. And that softer side, I believe, is actually a masculine trait.12:25That softer, tender side, to be able to hold space, to listen, to be there for somebody can be very masculine. Right. And so when there's this leather jacket, so to speak, in between you and another person that's saying, I'm scared. I'm scared to be vulnerable and to do that beautiful.12:52Yeah, I agree with that. Brandon, here, I'm going to give you a couple more. All right. I love it. Let's do it. All right. The next one is the wallflower. This guy won't fully engage in what's actually happening in life. He wants to stay just close enough to get a sense of connection, sometimes living through others. What the wallflower will say is, I just do really good at making sure there's no conflict. We never have conflict. Yeah.13:22And I don't want to make waves with anybody. I just want to observe and not be seen. Right. All right. This is hard for me to say the good stuff here, but the good stuff here is a kind, loving heart that cares about people and doesn't want to make conflict. Yeah, that's good. Here's the problem. The problem is God has made that man for something. There's purpose inside of that man.13:52There's passion. There's a need for battle and war and adventure and those things are there in some way somehow. And what he's spending his life doing is avoiding getting in the ring because he might get punched. But if he doesn't get in that ring, what will happen then? He lives this life of, like, emptiness and smallness.14:22He never lived it's like the scripture. Neither do men light a candle and put under a bushel. It's like too many men trying to keep the peace, end up totally playing small and robbing the world and their wives and their children and the relationships of the goodness and the purpose that God has put into them. Yes. But here's the thing, Tyler. Doing that is a little bit dangerous.14:53If you actually put yourself out there, you might get a battle wound, you might get hurt. You are going to get punched in the mouth. You will. Yeah, right. Why not just play it safe? Well, there's a big why not? Because you're not actually living. Right. And the feminine actually senses that. They sense the weakness of you're scared to actually really be. This is weakness.15:20I don't feel safe with you because you're always playing it safe. That's right. I got a story about this one. I'm kind of a wallflower sometimes, Brandon. And I remember when I was just getting ready to start my practice, I'd go to my wife. This happened for like six months. I'd go to my wife and I kind of like, hey, I think I could do it on my own. I think I could start my own practice and I could stop my other job. And she'd say, yeah, why don't you do it? Go for it. And then I never do anything. And then I go to her and have her try to encourage me again and tell me that I was good enough that I could probably do it on my own.15:52And finally one day she just turned to me and she looked me straight in the face and she said, hey, Tyler, I would rather be married to a man who actually tries and fails than someone who just talks about it. But she was getting at it like that's. The truth, though, is that she's like, I just want to be married to a guy in the arena. Put yourself in the arena. I'm with you.16:21I don't care if we live under an overpass as long as I got a guy who's in the game. But I don't want to be with somebody who's not going to ever put themselves in the game. Right? Yes. You know, it's interesting, Tyler. When I think about kind of the partner or the feminine side of things, there's this kind of conundrum of I want a man who is him, who is in some ways dangerous and just honest and confident.16:52But at the same time, if I lack trust in that relationship, I don't I want the safe wallflower guy, Mr. Nice Guy. But you know what? Then I don't want him. I'm not attracted to that. I'm not safe there. And so Dang it, I wish he was confident and masculine. And him, it puts them in this tough spot of like, I had a client last week ask his wife and say, do you really want me to show up masculine?17:20And she looked at them and said something like this. I don't know if I'm ready for that because it's scary. It's scary. And it's also that thing you're talking about with the Will Smith thing that it could be part of the pendulum swinging a little bit too far. Right? Right. If he's a wallflower and then the wallflower all of a sudden goes to now I'm going to tell you how it is. Yeah.17:51That's the pendulum swing from an immature masculine to an immature masculine. Yeah. It's still toxic masculinity on both ends of the spectrum. But somewhere in the middle is where real powerful masculinity lies. Right? Yeah. Can I give you another one here? What you're doing, Tyler, is you are kind of illustrating these poser roles that we see a lot of.18:22Right. And I like how you put kind of caricatures on it because maybe it's extreme what we're talking about. But the characteristics that we see in these pose when we say pose or what are we saying? We're basically saying the mask that I put on so people think I'm good or people think I'm masculine. Yeah. It's the identity, the false identity. Trying to shame screen to get love.18:52Basically. Right. Okay. So I'm going to give you another one here. This one is the summer sales dude. He overcompensates for his insecurities by presenting the facade of complete success. It's been said that the size of his truck is an over compensation for how he feels about his manhood. You're describing. I've got a lot of summer sales people mad at me right now. Hey, this is just kind of a joke, you guys. But think about it now when you say that we all know what you're talking about, though, right?19:25But it's this persona of as a man. I got it all figured out. I make all the money. I got all the cool stuff, and it's not bad to have gear. It's not bad to have cool gear and have the stuff, but it's what's behind it that really makes you feel that toxic masculinity. I have to have it in order for you to think that I'm in order for me to be good enough, I have to have this and show it to people.19:54But I think the truth in this one is there's a true side of this one, too, which is that I do want to be the kind of person that can provide. I want to be successful in my vocation. I want to make sure that I'm taking care of the people around me. It might be the reasons why I'm having the things that I have that's part of the toxic element. Exactly. So they go to the gym every day.20:24They look good. All of those things are awesome. It depends on whetherit's driven from a place of real progression and alignment with God or shame. Right. And that's an over compensation. Exactly. You know, it's interesting, Tyler. I've met with a lot of these guys, and their neighbors kind of are jealous of them.20:55And other people wish they had that much money and that much success. And their life looks so perfect, their family looks perfect. And then what happens when they come into our office? Basically, the facade crumbles it's all. They're like, Man, I wish I had confidence in myself, and I wish I had the kind of relationship that it looks like my neighbor has. It's almost like a flips on his head. Yeah. And the wife is dying inside.21:26Like, yeah, everybody thinks we have it all. Everyone thinks, this is so wonderful, and I am so depressed and so disconnected and disconnected. And this is awful. Right. Okay, here's another one. This is a big one. I think it's the Pharisee this person hides behind the facade of religiosity. God is good. They can quote a Bible verse on demand, but they can't seem to apply the same principles in their own heart and life.21:58This doesn't happen, Tyler, if you have a good Church calling, like you're really into your Church, there's nothing going on behind the scenes, right? Yeah. No, this one's hard, though, because, again, here's the truth in it is that I think it's actually extremely masculine to be willing to wrestle with your own spirituality, with God, with even your own religion.22:27We need to be engaged in that. There's some type of humility in that. But you're talking about two different things. There's difference between wrestling with God and the Pharisee. Like, what you're talking about. What's the difference? Because there's truth in the need to be wrestling with a higher power. I would say this is one of the most complicated gas lights that there is out there is if I come across as spiritually, I got it all together.23:01I go to Church, I wear the perfect tie, I give the best talks at Church. I'm so involved and this and that, but I'm doing it because I don't feel like I'm okay and I don't feel like I'm enough. It's a tough Gaslight for a partner because they're like, man, everybody sees him as Mr. Wonderful Spiritual Church man. Amazing. Right?23:32The problem is, here's the problem, Tyler. What is real humility and real services? Well, humility. My definition of humility is accepting everything God says about me, both positive and negative. Okay. What that means then, is that I have a relationship with God, and then I Act according to who God tells me that I am.23:59Okay. So I think the Pharisee, this poster you're talking about actually gets that backwards. Right? I don't have a relationship with God. So I Act to try to get God's love versus knowing God loves me as I am and accepting my faults and who I am and all those things. Yeah, right.24:23So it's that person who's just trying to prove it again, Tyler, I hate to say this, but in a lot of churches and religions, these Pharisee guys, they move up the ranks quickly because they're willing to do all the things. They're willing to go to all the service projects and do all the things and do this and do that. And they move up the ranks quickly and they get higher and higher calling, so to speak.24:55And yet a lot of the energy behind it is actually shame. It's not true. The byproduct, Brandon. And this is the hard part. I think this is the worst part of it is the byproduct is the impact it has on the people that are the closest to me, where now all of a sudden it's like the Doctor Jackal, Mr.25:19Hyde thing where I'm being preached to about all these Bible verses, but then I'm being mistreated on the backside by being neglected or being criticized or being treated rigidly or in a disconnected way. And it causes a secondary wrestle with the people who are close, especially close to this man with their own relationship with God and their own relationship with their religion and going, well, wait a minute. How could this stuff be true?25:50How could these principles be true when I feel so sick and gross about it? Right. Yeah, we could do a full episode on this one. I'm about to go off and get on my pedestal. Let me go to a different one then. This next one is Mr. Wright. This person has more answers than Alex Trebek. Being an expert at everything, he won't hesitate to share his expertise with anyone.26:21Hey, don't knock on treback. I love tribe. Rest in peace. But Mr. Wright can't be wrong a narcissistic little bit. Right. But it comes across as strength and security. If you're supposed to step into your masculinity, if you're supposed to be firm and strong and maybe be a leader, you should have all the answers.26:49But I would definitely disagree with that. That it comes across to strength and security. It comes across as weakness and insecurity. Right. It's trying to come across as strength. That's the goal, right. That's the element of maybe masculinity that you're trying to exude. Yeah. But if you cannot own your faults and where you have missedteps and where you suck.27:21If you can't own your suck, then when you do have truth, then it's hard for others to hear because they're so sick and tired of you always trying to be right, right. Well, it's funny because that energy definitely comes through, even though you don't know you're sending that energy through. Yes. That's the case with all of these, right. With all of these, you think that your poser and your shame screen.27:51And this false masculinity is actually working. Guess what? It's not because everyone around you can feel that insecurity. That's where the feminine comes in. It doesn't matter if you're every single one of these roles that we've talked about. If you play all of them perfectly, I still can feel where you're at with yourself and how much you trust yourself and know yourself and know God.28:21It's that genuineness that has to come through. That doesn't when it's being performed in some way. Yeah. In fact, the more you try, the less I feel that strength. All right, here's another one. This one I think we've run into a lot, Brandon, and we've referred to it as a Mr. Nice Guy. The one I've got written here is the doormat or the George McFly. This person tries to stay connected by letting others constantly take advantage of them under the guise of being the nice guy.28:55Yeah, we see this a lot, isn't there? Like, let's just tease out what element of masculinity might really be tied to this one, especially in our world, we are supposed to be kind to people. We're supposed to be agreeable. We're taught, especially like in the recovery world, we're taught, hey, especially if you're the one that's done the betraying.29:23You need to be sensitive. You need to be patient. You need to make sure that everyone around you, especially your partner, is feeling safe and connected, which means you probably shouldn't ever make waves. And you're probably in debt now. You're in debt. You're in your relationship now to where you got to go, even the ledger, by doing whatever anybody else wants you to do because you've made all the mistakes. Yeah, all what you just said is total BS.30:01Let's say this is a stupid example, but let's go with it. So let's say I cheated on my wife, and a month later, she's in just tons of betrayal trauma. We go to buy a car, and she says, I want the I want the pink Miata.30:24And I'm thinking, well, I want the Raptor, right? So let's say I give in and we get the Miata, but I give in in my truth heart of hearts. I don't want to spend that money on that. I'm not comfortable with it. It's not what I want whatsoever at all.30:49But I cheated on her a month before, and so I give in. What am I doing to the relationship? So this is the challenge. What you're doing is you're actually creating a situation where the relationship is now one up, one down relationship, meaning one person has all the control and the other one doesn't have any control, and it becomes based on power and control, which then robs the relationship of actual connection in the long term. Brand. This is the hard part, and this is the really hard part.31:19This is really hard for the betrayed partners, too, to accept this because on one hand, they know it's true, and on the other hand, it's really scary. The only way the relationship is going to last long term is if there's two partners who see each other as equals. Yes. Okay. That's the key there is. Even if I have done a horrific thing in my marriage, my worth is the same to God as it was before I did that horrible thing.31:54And here's the deal. In order to rebuild trust and safety and security with my partner, the last thing that I need to apply to the equation is dishonesty. And so. Oh, I really like that car. Yeah, I want that. No, that's hurting the whole thing right now. Like Will Smith's pendulum swing, let's say I say to her, hey, I listen to Brandon's podcast, and he said, I got to be honest.32:25That's controlling the other way. Now it's a one up, one down the other way. Exactly. So what might happen is we get the CRV because she's good with that and I'm good with that. We compromise, but we're honest and we're both good with it. Right. But the point is that to emasculate yourself, to try to rebuild trust in the relationship, is the very thing that destroys trust.32:58Okay. Yeah. And so coming back to Mr. Nicekey Mr. Nice Guy drives me crazy because they come across as good as willing. I'm willing to do whatever you tell me, and I deal with Mr. Nice Guys. Hey, Brandon, tell me to do this. Okay? I'll go jump through that hoop and I'll go do this, and I'll go do that. But you know what I'll do? I'll crumble every time there's conflict in our relationship. I won't be honest.33:28I will hold a ton of resentment toward people around me, a ton of resentment. But I'll just keep doing what they tell me to do. And the Mr. Nice Guys, they're so nice, and yet they're some of the most manipulative, dishonest men out there. It makes sense, even though that makes sense. As a self proclaimed nice guy, I would never have viewed myself as dishonest.33:57I would have viewed myself as humble, as patient, as Meek. But what you're saying is actually true, which is that because I'm unwilling to share my own thoughts, my own opinions, my own feelings, set my own boundaries, what I'm doing is I'm never allowing anybody to actually know who I am or what I think. And so there's nothing to attach to. And there's dishonesty. Yeah.34:26And I say they're dishonest, but ultimately they're dishonest and manipulative because they're scared. There's fear. And so they're acting and trying to get out of that fear over and over and over again and undermining actual security and trust and long term, what they actually desire, they are undermining getting it in a relationship because they're showing up with zero masculinity. And at the core of it all, Tyler, is this.34:58I lack a sense of self. So I need to get that from you. Right? So I'm trying to consume you to get my worth. And by doing so, I'm avoiding all this conflict and doing all these things totally undermining my ability to be a masculine, healthy partner. Okay, good. So, Brandon, we got just a couple of minutes left. Let's figure out then. I know we've got to listen. We got, like, ten more that we're not going to get to today.35:26But what's the antidote then to all of this stuff? Because we've named off a number of different ways that people are trying to step into their masculinity, but it's not working. So what is the antidote? All right, so I got it. Okay. But I'll rattle this off and understand that this is a process of healing that takes place, but you can engage in this process and get rid of these shame screens.36:03Okay. The first thing you need to do is to actually love and accept and become conscious of these roles. It's good for us to say, wow, like I am a Mr. Nice Guy or, yeah, I'm totally the Harley dude. This part of me has actually been there to try to protect me and help me. But you know what? The consequences that I'm getting from it, I don't want any more in my life.36:32So I've done a good job at learning how to do this. It's not working for me anymore. So you don't beat yourself up. You actually have compassion for yourself as to why you do it. But you get to know your shadow. You get to know your false identities. You acknowledge them. You see that they're there. That's step number one. Okay? Once you're aware of it, you're conscious of it and you've been curious of it.36:57The next part is really important is that you practice courage to actually do the opposite of what that shame is telling you to do. Okay. So you might say, well, Will Smith did that, and he did. And actually, I think that's good for him. He was practicing to learn like, oh, that was my true self. Yeah, that wasn't my true self. I got to back that up a little bit here. Right.37:24But him just sitting there not doing anything and being a coward would have gotten him nowhere. Right? So you have to practice something different, and you have to kind of throw it out there and feel something new. Okay. So, like, let's say I'm the wall flower in my therapy group. Well, if I recognize I'm the wall flower, then this week when I go to group, I'm going to speak up. People are going to know my opinion.37:54Right? And I'll probably botch it and be bad at it and not know how to do it. But you know what? I'll learn that I can do that, and I'm okay. Then you'll learn how to find your place in your voice more, and you realize, oh, this ishow my voice really fits in my group. I'm not just acting in my fear and never speaking up. And then you do it consistently.38:22You figure it out who you truly are, and then you step into it again and again, and you don't give that fear power anymore to dictate your actions and who you are. Right. Are you seeing what the process is here? Beautiful answer, Brandon. So I'm going to give you another personal example to make sure we're clear on this. A few months ago, we were traveling and we happened to stop at a subway to eat. My wife just remarked about something about Subways, like marketing plan or something.38:54And I jumped right in without skipping a beat and started just describing to her Subway's marketing plan. Okay. Because I missed her. Right. I have all the answers because I obviously know everything about sales and marketing and marketing. Yeah, exactly. So I started explaining this and pontificating about all of this as if it's fact. And she stopped me and she said, Tyler, you're full of crap. Like you don't know anything about Subway's marketing plan.39:22And so according to your plan, she was the one that offered me the gift of seeing that mask. I get to go, oh, yeah, that's my Noitall guy. That's my Mr. Right guy. You know what, Babe? You're right. I don't know anything about Subway's marketing plan. But Tyler, what if she's not right? So what if you're just, like talking and just like talking about Subway and this, and she's like, hey, you don't know anything.39:52Well, then I'd have to maybe come back and say, I may not know everything. I guess here's my opinion on it. But I was stating it at this time. I was stating it as if it was fact. Like I had just gotten out of the boardroom with Subway guys or whatever. So she called me on it. So according to your recipe, I have to recognize it and embrace that. It's there and go, okay, I have a little bit of Mr. Wright in me. What Mr. Wright is doing right now is it's actually going to cause disconnection?40:22I just want to highlight something you recognize. It not because your spouse is telling you that's what it is. Okay. Because if you do that, then that codependent again, right, of like, here I go. It's one up position. Right? And I see that a lot. Like, okay, she tells me I'm a piece of crap. I guess I'm a piece of crap. That's not what we're saying. No. She offered me the insight into what I already know about myself now, which is that I have that tendency.40:52Right. And probably hence the reason why we do a podcast. So I recognize it however it comes to fruition. In this case, it was through my wife, but it might be through myself. Once I recognize it, I embrace it. That's a part of me that I'm working on. And then I step into acting opposite to what I would do, which would normally I would double down and we would end up in an argument about Subway's marketing plan instead of just going, you're right.41:22I don't really know. I suspect this is my thought on it that they did this and this and this. But you're right. I don't know. It's absolutely true. So now I'm acting opposite to what I would typically do, and that actually has more strength in it than to double down and to stay stuck as Mr. Wright. Yes, that's it. But you're recognizing, hey, my fault self was acting out of fear, and I don't want to do that. Sometimes the opposite action is shutting up.41:52If you're missed or right, and you're in a group and you can't shut up, maybe you need to be quiet and listen. And that's uncomfortable. Right. But because your Poser's not taking charge here. Yes, the Harley guy. Maybe the opposite action is actually going to talk openly with somebody, go to a therapist and open up about your feelings because you're recognizing, I'm Harley guy.42:25Opposite action. Heals. Shame. Opposite action to the shame. He'll shame. But there's a requirement, and this is what nobody likes. And this is why we get stuck in our shame for so long. The requirement is courage and vulnerability. For Mr. Nice Guy to have a boundary with a spouse or to give an actual opinion in a relationship is like the scariest thing ever.42:54But that's what it requires. In order to face your shame, you have to step through some vulnerability and some courage. And then if you do that over and over and over again, eventually, that poster is not the thing protecting you anymore. And you realize, I don't need it. I don't need that anymore. I like who I am. I've figured out where the middle ground is, and I'm standing in my space as my own individual self. I can trust myself more.43:23I know myself more. Absolutely. So it's a good discussion toy. I appreciate you indulging me. No, it's great. This is great. We would probably need to follow up with the other half of our list here sometime. But I know that this is probably some really kind of pertinent stuff for a lot of people listening right now. For those of you listening, hopefully you're hearing that there is space somewhere in the middle ground. And really, ultimately, what true masculinity is for you husbands who are trying to step into helping your wife's heal is to step more and more fully into accepting exactly who you are.43:58Yeah. And I want to do one little side note here. It's not just men or masculinity that pose in shame screen. All humans do. Every single human does. And going through this process of figuring yourself out is good for anybody. And so I just want to highlight that we talk about masculinity because what we hear a lot about is how a breakdown in Masculinity is happening and destroying trust and safety in a relationship.44:28But this applies on both ends and we could go through the same list with a different list but the same type of poser list with femininity and talk through that as well. Absolutely. All right, guys, if you found this helpful, please share it with other people. That's how we're able to reach more people and thank you guys for listening and for your support. We really appreciate it. You guys have a good one. See you guys.47:19You.