00:01My partner is sober, but my relationship is not healing. Now what? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:34All right, Brandon, sounds like another one of these messy, middle kinds of conversations today, but I got to tell you, over the weekend, I got to tell you about my highlight of the weekend really quick, okay? Please.00:50I know you should be. What weird thing did you do now? No, I didn't do anything. It was all about you, actually. Brandon, you don't remember this, but when your daughter Sandy was really little, did you get that message from Rex this weekend? Yeah, I got you guys. Sandy had to be like four or five years old, and Rex was pretending to film Sandy while you guys were playing just dance, but you were in the background with your shirt off, dancing the same way Sandy was.01:20And Rex is really just filming you. So that was the highlight of my weekend, is to watch you get fully into just dance. It's because I'm a heck of a dancer. Of course you loved it. And it wasn't for your dance moves. It was really because of how terrible you are at dancing. Hey, you're wanting to talk? Tyler, I've seen you at a wedding. Oh, my gosh. You can ruin the whole dance where everyone just stops dancing when you get on it.01:52Anyway, that was the highlight of my weekend, Brandon, so thank you. You're welcome. All right, so we have a guest here, Emily, and I'm actually really excited for her to be here. I think that we're going to have good discussion today and hoping to just open some things up to dig into a lot of the ways that a lot of people may be feeling in this whole recovery process and just speak to it.02:25Just talk about it and see where we get with it. So, Emily, if you could give a little bit of background and tell us while you're here, give a little bit of background and ask any questions that you have. Sure. So I am a mom to eight kids. I've been married for 23 years. Discovery was now nearly 16 years ago.02:54We've been separated twice for lengthy amounts of time. I've been a single mom a lot and been through lifestyle, been through everywhere from the codependent model to Doctor Omar Manuela now. And I just don't see a lot of gaps there for those that have been betrayed.03:25Emily, are you saying that you're skeptical about the help and the healing that's out there? I don't think skeptical is the right word, because ultimately between myself and the work that I have come to do and do for myself and my own relationship with deity, I don't think that it's fair to say that healing is that I'm skeptical of healing.03:53Okay. I think I'm more skeptical of. Got you.04:39Can I ask you, Emily, I'd like a little more detail. I mean, you've been in it for a long time, 16 years, been through everything. Sounds like a lot of treatment. I mean, eight kids having separations. Could you give me a little bit more about when you say you want more from the relational healing aspect?05:07What are you not getting from your husband? What is lacking there, emotional attunement is not present. And honestly, one thing that I would so much love to see that I don't think these men understand is it's like he keeps doing this dance right where he's like, oh, do you want me to do this?05:43Oh, should I do this? Oh, maybe I should try this. How about you try showing up as yourself? Yeah. Amen. How about you try being in this relationship and just communicating instead of keep trying to jump around and guess about what I might want, because I don't want that you're wanting to be married to someone who's authentic, even if some of what they think or believe isn't exactly what you think or believe.06:19It's almost more secure if it's just a real person instead of somebody who's constantly trying to placate you or make you feel better. Oh, absolutely. I'm hearing you say, I'm married to a man. I don't know your husband at all, but this is what I'm hearing from you, Emily. I'm married to a man who doesn't really know who he is. And because of that, I don't feel trust and safety in the relationship.06:50And he can get sober, he can try to do all the right things. And yeah, that's wonderful. But that does not build trust and safety in a healthy relationship. Is that what you're saying, Emily? Yeah, it's not fun. Yeah. I can't plan a future and work towards drinks together like I want to with somebody who doesn't know what he wants.07:18Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, Emily. I actually wonder, like you said, this thing about the gaps, and you said he doesn't really know who he is. And I wonder if we could kind of put some names to some of the outcomes of not knowing who he is in terms of how it plays out in the relationship for a minute. Is that okay? Yeah.07:43So if he doesn't know who he is, what does that do in terms of the gaps that are there in the relationship that you really want? What's missing? Consistency, vulnerability, which is such a I mean, that's such a buzzword, right. It's true, though. Yeah.08:11But once they use it on primetime TV, you know, it started to not mean anything anymore, right. I guess just sharing yourself in a relationship. Right. So that intimacy disorder really, I think, holds a lot of things back.08:42And I feel like a big part of that, not being able to see that, not being able to fill in those gaps is just really this resistance to still not wanting to see the whole of who he is. Right. Because the whole part of who he is might be I've been abusive, I've betrayed. That doesn't mean that I'm a lost cause. It doesn't mean I'm a zero person.09:11But I do think that part of why he's not wanting to show up fully as who he is, because then you have to accept all of who you are. But that's how it is for the other spouse as well. I think you're right. So you're bringing up a fewprinciples. You said consistency, vulnerability, you were alluding to accountability, meaning I can take ownership for all of my stuff. And I think inside of all of that, the big one that I think is another buzzword, but I think is really true is empathy.09:41And if I'm unwilling and unable to go into myself. And here's another word, humility. Accept all of me, both my strengths and my weaknesses, and commit to working on my weaknesses, but also offer my strengths, I'm going to have that void where there can't be that connection, because there's not empathy and vulnerability. And that's the gap that you're experiencing right now. Does that sound about right? Yeah.10:11Can we talk about why a little bit? Because I think that's kind of the root of it. Why the lack of vulnerability? Why the Mr. Nice Guy in the relationship that's manipulative and trying to put on a show to be loved? Why the inability to create real safety and trust in the relationship? Why?10:39What do you guys think? Wouldn't I like to know. I have a hunch. Well, I think Emily is actually speaking to it right now, Brown. And I would suspect that this boils down on the other side of all those principles is still an inability to be resilient to shame. Meaning. But why, Tyler? I mean, that's still the problem. That's still the symptom. The shame is the symptom.11:09The inability to be resilient to shame is still the symptom. So if he shows up in this relationship with Emily not resilient to his shame, then he'll never build trust. His attachment disorder will run wild. Right. But we still got to dig a little further. Why is he not able to be resilient to his shame? What's in the way of that? Like, what is it the root underneath all of this pushing him to disconnect from Emily?11:40I think that's what we really need to look at. I'm not sure I'm tracking where you're going, Brandon, but I'm thinking fear. It would be nice to have him on the show with us to find this out. But if I'm looking at my other clients that are in a very similar situation, which, by the way, Emily, this is really common. I hear your concerns all the time. He's afraid of being seen. But why?12:11I know I'm annoying. I know it. That's what I want to know. I mean, I'm still here, right. So tell me what you guys think about this, Emily. Your relationship is a perfect thing to trigger all of his fear and shame, whether it was with you or another person, a relationship that is about building intimacy and connection together.12:43If there's a lot of shame underneath there, then that shame is going to really get in the way of that intimacy and connection. The fear and the shame. Shame is just fear of abandonment or rejection. That's a shame, is it's? So we look at that and we say, why does he have fear of abandonment or rejection? It's because he's had experiences in his life probably long before he even met you that told him that he wasn't lovable, that he wasn't good enough, that he's not strong enough as a man, that he's a pervert, and that he's broken.13:19He's had those type of experiences in his life, so much so that he started to believe them as his identity, as who he really is. I'm an unlovable, broken man who it won't be loved as I am. Right. And he's not here. I'm jumping pretty far with this. So what he does is a song and dance to do everything he can to not show you that.13:50Let me not show her. Let me be as sober as I can be and tell her that I'm doing my recovery and be really nice. And to not show you that deep down, that's what he believes about himself because of the trauma that he's experienced. Right. And so if you go to treatment and you learn about recovery and you do all these things and it's like, yeah, let's teach you how to be a good boy and how to be sober.14:18The same systems can fall into place of, okay, now I'll do everything I can to show that I'm a good boy, that I'm okay. Which leaves you, Emily, feeling like, okay, not only am I still not feeling trust and safety, now I'm being told that he's getting better yet I'm still not filling it. Right. And it's pretty frustrating. It's because the real issue is not being dealt with.14:43It's like he has brain cancer and has a really bad headache, and he's taking tons of ibuprofen to get rid of the headache while the tumor is still growing. And until that tumor is actually surgery is actually done, the problem is not going to get better. Right. Am I making does this ring true, Emily? And that's why it's so darn frustrating for you.15:12He's been through a lot of treatments and a lot of therapists and still in that. Right. So what's wrong? I guess where is the system failing that he's still in that place. That's a good question. I wonder if random you are alluding to it as a possibility. One place where it's breaking down is that. And this is probably from really good intentions, too. And the way that I see it is that sometimes it works in layers.15:43And I'll explain that in a second. But if I'm going to even my own treatment provider and I'm learning that there's a currency that if I show up and I'm a good boy and I stay sober and I get passed on the back, then I'm hearing, oh, good, I'm good now. I'm better. I've arrived, then the system itself could be actually reinforcing the very thing that Brennan is talking about, which is but what about the reason why?16:12So if I go to a treatment place and I learned my bottom lines and I'm doing my dailies in order to stay sober, and I'm showing up and I'm checking off the boxes and saying, yeah, I did this treatment program, and I went to this therapist and I did this and I went to this retreat and I did all this other stuff. But I'm doing it in order to make sure that I'm getting these compliments from my therapist. And I'm having my wife be happy with me.16:37And she's not ever going to want to leave me because she sees how hard I'm working and what a good boy I am that underneath it all, it's still the same motivator that's pushing all of that work. Tyler, I think you just uncovered something, and I want Emily to hear this. I can do good work. I can go to the right therapist. I can go to a good retreat, but I can do that good work with the wrong intention. And it actually does me harm.17:08So if the intention is to continue to try to prove myself and earn my love and show my wife that I'm good, then I'm actually just reinforcing the very problem still. Right. I'm reinforcing the shame that says that you have to prove yourself. Even when I seemingly do these good things, is that what I'm saying is and then that's probably not even, like, conscious or intentional.17:39A lot of times I think that's where the frustration comes in, because it's just as frustrating for someone like Emily's husband to be busting his tail thinking he's doing all of the right things. But he doesn't even understandwhat you mean by the wrong intention and with the wrong intentions. It doesn't mean it's like insidious, like I'm trying to be deceptive or anything.18:00It's like I think I'm going to get my value at the end of this performance instead of diving into this process to go and actually uncover my value by going through some of the depths of these things and being willing to take a look at these things and ultimately ultimately getting everybody else out of the way so that the only thing left is my relationship with God. Wow. Emily is the biggest barrier right now.18:30Emily is God. If she's like most women who get stuck in this space because not her fault, because he's in this place of going the very thing that I want most is my relationship with her. And because I'm so focused on her and keeping her happy and performing my way in. And he probably has a relationship with God that's like this, too. That's like God won't love me unless I do this and this and this and this and this and this and what ultimately needs to happen is that everything everybody needs to get out of the way so that God can actually access his heart.19:01And unfortunately, the way God often accesses our hearts is through our darkness. So I just agree on a few points. One is I know exactly what you're talking about with the earnings, and I've seen that a lot. I think that I grew up in a house like that, but the earning is usually attached with a lot of action, which is not what we have.19:31And I feel like it's more just the lower brain driving the bus. And the main intention is I just don't want to be in trouble because I'm the only person there's ever been accountability with anywhere in his life. Ever. Right. So he just doesn't want to be in trouble. Okay. But it's not like not doing all the action.20:01Oh, I see what you're saying. So he's actually underperforming, but he's just trying to stay out of trouble. Right. He does what he can to not be in trouble. Right. So he's not going overboard. But it's always resistance. Right. Which even shows more this kind of bad intention. Right.20:28Which is I'll take the path of least resistance to not be the bad boy, not be the bad guy. Whereas Tyler and I both know this. Emily, one of the key recipes to real healing. Both Tyler and I believe in actual healing from this attachment disorder and from the addiction, like real healing from the roots down. Right. But we know this. We know this.20:53We know that in order for it to happen, the person struggling with the addiction needs to have their own internal motivation to heal degree that has to be there. And when they're using their spouse in order to what's happening is he's not really motivated to do the hardest work. What he's motivated to do is to not get divorced from you. Right.21:24And your intuition and your gut is saying, I know that's true. I know that's true. And I want real healing from you. I need real healing in this relationship, even if the relationship ends. He needs real healing. Absolutely. I mean, even as the father to my children, no matter what, I would want that for him anyway, just to be a real person, of course.21:52But that requires him wanting it, him willing to do that. Like you say, he's done a lot of therapy and this and that. Yeah. He might have sat through a lot of therapy sessions and sat through a lot of groups. Has he really Dovein with a heart that is about his healing and his self discovery. Has he really done that therapy? That's the question. Has he really done that work that gets into his relationship with God and mending?22:24That and figuring out who he really is doesn't sound like it. And how many people do that's a good question. That I think is part of what you're struggling with is that in our world, you don't have those statistics, right? It's not like we could go and look that up and go like, how many couples I mean, I could tell you how many couples stay together, but we don't know how many are actually happily married. 70% of couples end up staying together. But how many fall in the same category is what you're describing, right?22:53That's the question. Because what you're describing is sort of that little weird space of we're staying together, but it's uncomfortable and it's not really getting what we want. Emily, here's what sucks. There isn't research. There isn't the data. And I wish I was a PhD that could conduct a longitudinal study. And, you know, Tyler and I are fortunate enough to interact daily with people in recovery, both men and women in recovery.23:28So we know it's real. I work closely with people in recovery. They've gone from horrible relationships to awesome relationships and building trust again in their relationships. So it's absolutely real. I can tell you that just because of my personal experience, what I can't do is pull out the Journal and show you the statistics. I wish that those were there.23:55And Emily, a lot of times the addiction wins, a lot of times it doesn't happen. So, yes, recovery is real, but also not choosing recovery is very real, too. And I see that a lot as well. Can you guys. I think I've got cut off for a second. Can you hear me now?24:22Okay, I was just thinking it's not ever the best situation to use anecdotes, but I think that's what we can use here. And I do see a pattern that seems to happen when the people that have it worked. And I do see a lot of people that haven't worked. And I can tell you from my own personal experience and also from the experience of what I see in the men that I work with, it kind of follows this pattern. I'm scared to death of getting caught because I'm afraid of all those things that Brandon talked about earlier.24:54When I do get caught, there's a little piece of relief that comes up that's like, Whoa, okay, now I don't have to hide anymore, but there's also this fear that now I'm going to lose what's important to me, my family, my wife, whatever my job and my motivation for the short period of time works from this place of fear and shame still. And that's a short term fix. But long term, that can't be it. And over the course of that, I might get sobriety, and I might be able to start feeling a little bit better about the fact that I know how to manage my emotions a little bit and not act out and perform for my wife.25:26But unless something starts to shift and there becomes this belief in self that starts to emerge, or this belief in a higher power or this hopeful thing, this way of looking forward to a life of continual progress, then you get stuck in this kind of place that I hear you being in. And so the shift has to happen from the inside out, where think of it as a fuel source. The fuel source has to start to change from the shame and fear place to a place ofpossibility to a place of hope to a place of eventual connection to something bigger than myself.26:01And when that happens, because it's happening from the inside out, there's like real heart in the change, then the result is that I'm going to be leading into more and more of these decisions to dig deeper into my recovery work. And I look at recovery like you're on this path, and there's these continual crossroads that you have to choose. And every crossroad comes with a choice between two kinds of pain.26:25And unless my motivation is coming from deep, deep inside, every time that painful choice comes, the natural tendency is to choose the path of least resistance, because that's just the human element. That's the thing to do. So if I have the internal motivation that says I'll do whatever it takes, I've got to figure this out.26:47Not because I'm going to lose everything, but because I have this inkling of the fact that I've got a life that could be effective and beautiful and powerful and that maybe there's some purpose to it, then I'm going to be willing to step into that other choice that might look a little harder, but it's going to be the pathway to more freedom. Yeah, that makes sense. Sounds amazing. But the ultimate question is, how does that happen? It's not a choice anyone else can make.27:20Here's the thing. The wrong three people are talking about this right now because we can talk in circles all day long of like, why won't he step into this? I feel from you, Emily, almost like you want to call BS on it, because it's like, I've been doing this for 16 years. We spend a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of energy, and we're in the same freaking spot. Right.27:45So when is it going to change? And like I was saying, we can talk in circles because the fact of the matter is, until he's willing to enter that cave that he's really afraid to enter, it's not going to change. And you don't have the control and the power. You can crack the whip all day long, Emily, and you'll get more frustrated and more resentful because you want a man to step up as your partner and as your husband to do his own work.28:15I don't want to crack the wind. Exactly right. You want him to step up and step into who he really, truly is, but that's on him. I know that. So I think, Brandon, Emily is asking a question. I can see there's a lot of emotion here, too, Emily.28:45I think what she's asking the question is, in a sense, and I'm going to put words in your mouth. So tell me if I'm wrong. Give me some hope. What does the process look like? I know I can't control it. I know I can't fix him. But how does one come to this place where they make a choice to do their own work? What leads to the choice to do your own work?29:09Because I know I can't do that for him, for me, because I can choose to have hope and lots of things in my life, which I will continue to do to just go on creating the life that I want. What do you want hoping, though? Do you want hoping in the relationship, Emily, to get better?29:40I want to know how people like you doing the work that you do. I want to know how do you try to stimulate that type of change? Okay, I got an answer for you, and it might be one you don't like. There's two great motivators.30:06And to me, one of the great motivators is pain. And so that's where you've been separated a couple of times. I'm sure you felt some pain when you separated. Right. But that's where your good, healthy, honest boundaries about what works for you and what doesn't in that relationship is going to push him to look at some things, and maybe it won't push them far enough to actually kick into gear. Right.30:35The second great motivator is actual inspiration and connection to purpose in God is seeing who I really am and feeling it, and it feels good. And so I want to move forward, and I want to move into that what pushes a person like him into motivation. If you have the answer to that, Emily, then I would love to know specific to him because this is what we're doing in groups and in therapy all the time.31:03What's going to help this person actually start to move forward, and it's a little different for everybody. Tyler, do you have any thoughts on that? I do. I just want to just maybe share a personal story that goes along with what you're saying, Brandon, just to illustrate the principles that you're saying. When everything broke loose on us several years ago, my wife was devastated. Her world was rocked, and I was in that place of fear and shame when she left.31:35And I've told this story before, but we were on the highway next to each other, back and forth for about an hour before she kept going straight to leave, and I was getting off to go to work. And when I looked over and I saw the look in her eyes, that devastated look where I thought she'd be looking over with eyes of anger and bitterness and hatred. And instead it was like these eyes of just pure devastation and sadness. And something inside of me broke. There was an emotional thing that broke.32:04And I thought to myself, I cannot afford to hurt people the way that I've been hurting people anymore. I have to figure this stuff out. And then she was gone for a while. And a few days later, I was driving home from work, and I got into my house, and I was just so overwhelmed with just this heaviness and this sadness and this fear and this loss and this shame. I couldn't even get through my front room. I collapsed on the front room floor.32:32And it was maybe one of the most heartfelt prayers I'd ever prayed. Even though I didn't feel like I was worthy enough to pray. In fact, I was the least worthy I'd ever been in my entire life. And something inside of me in that moment again opened up, and I felt complete love. And it baffled me. Like I couldn't understand why I could feel a feeling of love when I was ruining everybody's life around me. And that, to me, is what I focus on in my treatment is those two things.33:02One, pain is a motivator. The right kind of pain, not shame, but the reality of my choices when that comes to fruition. That can be a motivator because I can finally see and my eyes can become clear. And then the second one is love. And it's less about stopping the acting out. And it's more about trying to access, in whatever way possible, the ability to let ultimately God's love shine through and have an emotionally corrective experience.33:35Even more so than a mentally corrective experience. There's got to be a shift. That's why I love doing the men's retreat we did last year, Brandon,because we had 30 guys there, and at least 20 of them had emotional changes and shifts, not just a rational thing. And it was because it was because they were willing to go into some of those dark places that we took them to, and they were willing to allow themselves to go there with curious eyes and with open hearts.34:05And I believe they were able to experience some of that stuff. That's hard to put a finger on sometimes, but I want to highlight just a couple of things you said, Tyler. Notice that your relationship with your wife, it was an external motivation. Seeing her pain woke you up a little bit. I know you're an empath, Taylor, so I know when you saw her pain, I can't imagine the pain that you felt and just the anguish that you felt knowing you hurt her.34:40So bad. Right. So that has everything to do with your relationship has everything to do with her. Right. But then you said something. You said, I realized that I can't continue to hurt people like this. Right. And I prayed and I felt love. It turned back into you and your healing and your process. And I can tell you, Emily, Tyler is a different man now than he was ten years ago.35:10Like, he's very different. And so, yeah, we don't have the data. We have a real life breathing example right here of recovery. And if Tyler were that guy from ten years ago, I don't think his wife would be around. Still, she'd be gone. And Tyler has real trust and safety in his marriage now when he didn't have it before.35:37But, Emily, the frustrating part is that broken heart and that contract spirit, it that willingness to humbly, self reflect and do whatever it takes to let go of that shame and those identities that are tormenting your husband is terrifying to do this, but that's what needs to happen.36:05He needs to be broken so that he can be strong and he can show up for you. You're just seeing the shame from your husband over and over and over again, and you're sick and tired of it. And I don't blame you. Right. What's it going to take? I don't know. For Tyler, it was looking in his wife's eyes on the highway that day. What's going to be his moment?36:32Like lay Miz, you know, when the priest sets him free, like, what's going to be his moment where it's like, oh, my gosh, it's time to change. It's time to do the hard work. That example, Brandon, it's one of my favorite stories of all time is the Lay Ms story. And I relate so deeply to that that Jean Valjean, when he least deserved love and mercy and when he was most broken is where he had his shift that changed the whole outcome of his life and led to a man who ultimately did massive good in the world.37:10But I can't manufacture that. I try to you try to Rannon. We do that. We do that with our assignments. We do that with our groups. We do that with our retreats. We do the best we can to try to manufacture opportunities, corrective experience, mostly corrective experiences. And at the end of the day, that's the best thing we can do is cultivate the ground where it might happen. But a man's got to bring his heart to it. And sometimes it's through brokenness and other times it's through mercy, and it's just really difficult.37:43So I get, Emily, why you're so frustrated by it all? You know what, Emily, your frustrations led to is a great discussion for us to have. I think that this episode, a lot of men listening, this will be so, so good for them. I just really appreciate you coming on in your pain and in your frustration.38:09And maybe listening to this episode will be the thing that breaks somebody loose from all of these shame screens and starts working in actual recovery. And I wish that I could snap my fingers and have your husband do it, Emily, but I can't. Yeah, maybe. Emily, I just want to say thank you. I want to say thank you for your willingness to come on here.38:34I know we're running short on time, but I would love to continue the discussion at some other point with you because I can just see, like, you're a clear thinker your heart's fully invested. I wish people could see you, too, just in the way you've showed up today with your own whole heart and your own emotions. And I just want to say thank you to you for your willingness to do that. Well, Tyler, I'm happy to hear that you are a different person.39:02If you haven't fully come out on the other side, then I don't think you have any business guiding other men on that journey. And I see a lot of men who get a little ways and that they want to help other men, and I think it's really important to really walk all the way out the other side before you try to help somebody else. Yeah. Well, Emily, what I would say is that I don't even consider myself out on the other side because that's not how I view recovery.39:32Recovery. I'm going to be in recovery until I die. And I'm grateful for that opportunity because I'll get to grow and become somebody better for as long as I have left on this Earth because that's what recovery is. And so anyone who's on the other side, in my opinion, is looking at it from the wrong set of eyes because it's a continual journey. I'm glad to be where I'm at.39:55I'm glad that I had a wife that was able to work with me and that I was able to work with and that we do have an amazing marriage now, but I'm looking forward to the next 30 years to see where it goes, and that's the mindset I think everybody needs to have in recovery is that this is an opportunity for ongoing, continuous growth for the rest of our lives. All right, Emily, thanks again. I appreciate it, you guys.40:21If this was helpful and you listen to it and you're thinking of somebody that it would be helpful for, then have the courage enough to share it to help them. So thank you so much. Have a wonderful day and I see you guys later. Thanks, guys.
