00:01What is Brannon's perspective on The Betrayed, The Addicted and the Expert? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery Podcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:32Tyler, this is a good question. Yeah. You're definitely going to be in the hot seat today, BrownIn. I look forward to it. I hope you're feeling it. You're over there sweating bullets right now. Probably, but I think not at all.00:48This thing is probably long overdue, and I think it's going to be a good thing. I think we're going to have a really good discussion with it. Yeah. I'm excited. Before we do, we want to talk about our upcoming conference. I mean, we're what, Tyler? Two and a half, three weeks away. Like three weeks right around the corner. Three weeks away, right around the corner. Radiant dawn conference. And it's for women in recovery, women who are healing from betrayal trauma, but looking to do more than just heal from betrayal trauma to actually reclaim a whole hearted life.01:23And we have just a few spots left. I'm really excited about it. We're going to be down in Hurricane Utah, and we've got a phenomenal place to stay. We've got great experience lined out. And that's the thing about these conferences is that it's more about experience than it is just sitting and talking and thinking. So I'm pumped about it. We're getting out in nature. We're hitting it hard. We're going to be down in that red sand desert.01:52It's going to be just beautiful and really healing. So radiantdonconference.com. If you're interested. As we said, there really is only a few spots left. So snatch up one of those last spots. Okay, Brandon, let's get into this. This is something that I've been wanting to do for a while just because I've wondered what the process has been.02:24I from the very beginning have been a massive fan myself of the Betrayed, The Addicted, and the Expert podcast. And from its inception, it was a resource that I listened to to help myself. It's a resource that I sent a lot of my clients to because I found such value in it, because the way that you and Kobe and Ashley put things together and made the full picture come to fruition was just really powerful and really awesome.03:00When things kind of went the way that they have gone now with the Betrayed, the Addicted and the Expert, I've got a lot of questions from the people that I referred to you. I'm glad that now today we're going to at least get to hear from your part of it. I know that there's always three sides to the story, but we're going to hear your side of the story and some thoughts on the process that you've been in. And hopefully we'll have some discussion about some kind of key principles of recovery itself.03:29Yes. Just to comment on what you just said we had a four year run. We recorded weekly. We talked about hard topics. We would get feedback, like listening to your podcast is way better than therapy. You've saved me. You saved our marriage.03:53I could give you loads and loads of feedback that we got over the years and the good that we did do together and something I have no doubt about it, that God brought the three of us together. It was divinely organized. And I believe we did a lot of good. And it does break my heart a little bit the way that it all wrapped up. And I'd like to address any questions that people have.04:24I'm going to be respectful. I can't get into the nitty grittiest details of things, but I'm happy to answer questions now. Great. Well, and I think, Brandon, what I'd like to maybe start with today and this is as much for me as it is for probably everyone else listening is when things kind of happened the way that they did. It really kind of caught me off guard. I was surprised by it.04:51I think when I called you after hearing the episode where Kobe and Ashland and you kind of announced that it was no longer going to be the three of you guys and that they were going to uncouple, although we're going to talk about that term uncoupling later on. I was, number one, devastated with grief and shock. But number two, I called you and I said to you, Brandon, you guys have this amazing story going.05:19And if this was a movie that I was watching right now, this is the worst movie I've ever seen. Like the way it ended, this ending is not like something this doesn't fit. This isn't adding up like this is really disturbing. It shouldn't end this way. That's how I was feeling. And I think that's what I said to you. Can you just kind of maybe start by just sharing your side of what you saw? How things went down, why things went the way that they did?05:51Just kind of help paint that picture? Because I know there's a lot of other people that are probably feeling the way that I did. Yeah. So I just want to say I was shocked when this went from zero to 60 so fast where I'm good friends with Ashton and Kobe, and they seemed happier than I've seen them in a long time, just weeks before.06:22All of a sudden, Kobe is wanting to get divorced, and it happens so fast. I was shocked. And when it happened, you got to realize this is not just like your average couple getting divorced. They have this big platform about their relationship. Nobody, including me or Ashley or Kobe, knew how to navigate that.06:52Ashlyn was in shock. Ashland was in grief, pretty heavy grief because it really was big T trauma her divorce, the way it went down, it was just all of a sudden boom, I want to divorce them out. And so Ashlyn didn't know how to navigate it. Kobe didn't know how to navigate it. And I was like, well, what do we do now? And I look at principles of recovery.07:21And I think what we do is we face the hard thing. We deal with it, and we step into it and step through it. But there was a lot of fear there on all sides, and they didn't know how to handle it and what to say and what to do. So we did some things like, I met with Kobe only and recorded with him, and I met with Ashton only and recorded with her for a while.07:48And the audience could see, they could see that something was up, something was going on. But I was told pretty clearly, don't ask the hard questions, don't criticize, don't cause friction. And that's not like me to do that. I'm happy to go after denial when I see it. I'm happy to call somebody out when I see it. But I was basically told, if you do that, we're not going to release the episodes.08:23And I felt like, okay, our audience needs to know this is going down. We can't pretend forever that it's not. But at the same time, you're not letting me really ask these hard questions. Right? And so I think a lot of the reasons why the audience felt like, Ugh, was that there was no bit of like, hey, let's actually jump into the mess here.08:51Let's sort this out and figure out what's really going on. It was just like, let's put a smile on and just say, we're going to uncouple. That's it. And the audience is like, no, that's not it. There's more to this story. I think.09:14I just want to point out a principle that I think happens in recovery in general, based off of what you're saying is that for the audience who had been longtime listeners to you, in a lot of ways, this is a really good example for someone who's been in betrayal and asked the question, how will I know if there's real recovery happening? And the therapist looks at them and says, you'll feel it? And I think what happened in this scenario is that for so long, there'd been this true essence of, hey, guys, we can step into the hard stuff.09:47We're going to tackle the hard topics. We're going to talk about things. We're going to be real open, honestly. I mean, the thing that made the podcast so amazing was that you had real people sharing their real stuff. And then when it started to shift the audience, I think a lot of the audience, at least a lot of the clients that I had sent to the podcast were coming back to me and saying, this doesn't feel right. Like I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't feel good. And in a lot of ways.10:14It's the exact same kind of a process as someone who's been in a trail and is being told everything's good, but they still feel like, man, something's not quite right. I regret that Tyler playing that game with them for those few months that we did, as opposed to just putting my foot down and say, guys, I'm not going to smile and pretend like things are good right now. And when you're ready to do an episode talking about your divorce, then I'm happy to go forward with that.10:48I regret those months because I totally agree with you, Tyler. You feel integrity and honesty from people and our audience as a whole. They could fill it, too. And it did shift, I think, flip on its head. Where our platform, our podcast was built on that authenticity, right? That's what made it amazing. Yeah, exactly.11:21Brandon, why now? You could just let this thing right off into the sunset. It is what it is. It's water under the bridge. Why are we waking up the old beast? Why are you talking about it now? Here's the reason why now. They have gone back and forth and back and forth. What do I do here?11:49I don't want to hurt Ashley and Kobe anymore. They've both been through a lot of pain. I don't want to hurt our friendship. I don't want that to happen. But what put me over the edge was Kobe's recent episode where he came out saying, Well, I've waited a year, and now it's time for me toshare my story.12:14And his story to me, in a nutshell, was I got so healthy in my recovery that I had to leave Ashland, and I refused to let that be the story that's left on this platform that that's what it is. So at the risk of Kobe being mad at me, him not wanting to be my friend, it's time for me to share my story and to voice up and to share the intricacies of what I see as recovery or not recovery.12:48And so that's why it does break my heart. It makes me sad that it feels like there's one way or the other here that I have to go with this, but that's why. Okay, so, Brandon, I think first and foremost, we can both agree that whatever way it was presented by Kobe is his story, and that's his story, and that's okay. I think he truly believes that story, and that's okay.13:16And you're just saying that if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that you also see it so differently, and the way that you see it so differently has the potential to impact a lot of people to the point that you feel like you kind of need to share your own insights and perspectives on it as well. Absolutely. Yes. So just to understand, I was never Ashley and Kobe's therapist, but I would analyze their relationship on our show.13:49So I've spent a lot of time analyzing their relationship with them. Right. And then we did other things, like we talked to guests and just created content and stuff. But I analyzed their relationship a lot. But I wasn't their therapist. I wasn't sitting in the therapy office with them. I never did trauma work with either of them or anything like that.14:13But I do feel like I do have a right to give my analysis and my perspective after spending four years giving it on our show. Yeah. It comes back to what you said, Tyler. I do feel like now it's to the point where I feel like the way it ended did do people damage. It hurt people, and I need to do what I can to not let it hurt people anymore.14:45Okay. All right, Brandon. So with that said, let's start with the impacts that you saw that it's having on people. And let's jump into your perspective on how you see things that might be a good way to contrast about what's already been presented. Okay. I think one thing that we're also egocentric.15:13We think that the world revolves around us. And I think this actually probably has impacted people far less than we think. You're not as important as you think you are. Exactly. Okay. And so I'm aware of that. People realize, well, the way that podcast ended sucked and on with my life and on with my recovery. But I don't want to minimize anybody's pain or confusion who listened to the way that it ended.15:43And Tyler, I know you've expressed that some of your clients have expressed certain feelings and confusions, and maybe you could speak to that a little bit. Let me speak to those things for just a second, and then you can kind of respond with whatever you want to respond with. Here are the things that I've heard that are the most prevalent sorts of questions, concerns that I've heard.16:07The first one has been that when it all went down the way that it did, that there just was not authenticity and there wasn't transparency and that it felt there was actually some levels of almost like small versions of the trail trauma because people had been so invested in those things. The second thing is that the hope factor that this arena that we do our work in has a lotof challenge and struggle, and not so many people willing to put themselves out there is the beacon of hope.16:39And what this podcast is and was is that beacon of hope. And so to have it go down the way that it did without a really good explanation of all the details behind the scenes, really kind of put people's hope in a shaky place because what they were hearing was, hey, we're doing awesome, amazing recovery. And by the way, surprise divorce. And there wasn't any demonstration of the process to the divorce because that was never shared.17:12And so then the hope became shattered. It felt really confusing for people and it felt inauthentic. Mostly I can see those things. And the thing that comes to mind, Tyler, is Ashley and Kobe. They did good in the world with recording, I believe so much good.17:41And the reality is a lot of people that I work with who are in really solid recovery to you and I, Tyler, we get to interact with those people a lot. You could name several right now, both men and women in solid recovery. But to many people, this platform was the beacon of hope. It was the one couple that was navigating it and making it and doing it.18:10And it's funny, some of the men in recovery that would listen to the podcast would say, I can't listen to it. It drives me crazy because I'm seeing elements that are not really recovery there. And I'm having a hard time listening. It's easy for us, Tyler, to say recovery is real.18:32But I think for somebody who lives in a small town somewhere who listened to our podcast and had the mentorship of Ashton and Kobe get burned to the ground, that's pretty devastating, right? Yeah. So I can totally hear and see people's feelings around that. Yeah. Okay, Brandon, so you brought this one up.18:55And I think this is the other one that I was going to bring up anyway, is this idea of and I agree with you, the people that I know that are in active recovery, they were the first ones to say something doesn't quite feel right here. Can you speak to your version, your idea, your thought on principally, where was the disconnect between what people were seeing and hearing in the podcast and as real recovery versus where there wasn't actual recovery maybe taking place, if that's the right question.19:35Yeah. And so this is where I see it. Is somebody in solid recovery. It's such an ambiguous thing. What is recovery? Right. I actually think there is a pretty clear cut answer to that. And it's that somebody really knows who they are and trusts themself and is in alignment with God and their purpose. Right.20:04So from that comes confidence. It comes interdependency healthy boundaries and relationships. Like all these things. Things are stem from that stem from that. And I think as people listened, they could sense that with Kobe, that wasn't there. And although he was well spoken and could break down concepts, there was a lack of that strength there.20:37And I think that's what a lot of people had a hard time with him being a poster boy of recovery, yet feeling like there's a lack there and kind of seeing some of the codependency going on with Ashland and some of those things going on. And so I think it was hard to stomach for somepeople. Well, what I think, Brandon, is that and having listened to Kobe's most recent episode, I think he would actually agree with what you said, that during the process, he was going deeper and deeper into his own depth and going, wow, there's more here than I thought.21:13There's more here than I thought. And yet what the audience was seeing was the well spoken, hey, here's what you do here's. The principles. What wasn't being shown, I think, is as well as maybe everyone would have hoped, and I don't know how you do it. It's a tall task is that the principles were still being taught. The individual work in the depths were still happening, but it wasn't being shown. So that was part of where it felt like there was the disconnect, right?21:45Yeah, that's a good point either. What else, Brandon? Anything else that stands out to you that would kind of help connect the dots between real recovery versus what? Well, I think transparency in that. Like, we went from being this like, hey, let's show up every week and just talk openly and honestly to, hey, let's show up every week and make sure we can say certain things and not certain things and put a perception out there that this is what's happening.22:22And so that lack of transparency, I think, is ultimately what everybody started to feel. And even on our very last episode where honestly, I felt like I couldn't be totally transparent with the audience. It was just like I still feel manipulated, and I feel the very opposite thing of what I'm supposed to get from this platform. Dang it right.22:51I think that left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Absolutely. Yeah. So can we talk about that last episode for a second? One of the biggest things that I hear from my clientele, and one of the things that still has me to this day still kind of spinning in my brain is this use of the word uncoupling.23:20Can you speak a little bit to like, why is that word being used instead of divorce? And I guess what's the purpose of it? I can't speak to it because I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Here's the deal.23:46They read a book that says you're supposed to use certain vocabulary. I forget what it is. It's not you don't use X, you use former partner, you don't use divorce, you use uncouple. But the reason I don't like it is it comes across as I'm just choosing this thing, this wonderful thing, and just going about uncoupling. And I feel like it minimizes what it actually is.24:18You're divorcing, it's messy, it's hard and it's messy. And I think it's important when you talk to an audience who's kind of watching most of what your story is or maybe not to almost intellectualize it and minimize what it actually is just feels disingenuous. And so that's the problem I have with uncouple.24:47When I've decided to uncouple. Well, you decided to divorce. And I get the book says, don't say divorce, but on what it is own what you're going through. Right. That's how I feel about it, obviously. So you're saying Ash and Kobe feel different? Yeah. And again, everyone's entitled to do that. I know that for me, maybe that's maybe you just put words to it.25:15One of the reasons why I've struggled with that word is that it feels like, I don't know, it feels like, Brandon, when we grew up in the world that we grew up in, you played in your sports leagues or whatever, and you playedto win. And if you won, you got your trophy, and if you lost, you didn't. And then we got into a new generation and it's like everyone gets a trophy and it's avoiding the hard reality.25:46The word uncomplicated. I guess that's what it was. It felt like it was like, let's give everyone a trophy, even though it feels almost like there might be some denial in there, that the choice to divorce comes with all of its real struggles and challenges. And not that the word uncoupling changes any of that, but it feels like maybe it's trying to soften the reality of the situation.26:18Well, and on top of it, it's like, look, you've tried to act like this example of recovery, right? This example of recovery. And now in some ways, you've betrayed that, yet you're still trying to act like this perfect example of recovery as you go through divorce. So it's like, no, I read a book and I know exactly how to do it the perfect way. And I'm going to use words like uncouple.26:47It's fine. It's just words. Right. But I've had a lot of feedback from a lot of people of like, gosh, if I hear a couple again. Right. And I never liked it. Okay, well, Brandon, you just said something else that would maybe just spur on the conversation here where I think some of my clients would like to hear is that you've gone and betrayed.27:14I don't remember exactly who just said that. But you basically just said you've gone and proposed certain recovery, but then you betrayed that recovery. How is it that you say that and what do you see that makes you say that? I was producing programs with Ashley and Kobe about building trust and intimacy in relationships. Right.27:41I actually thought that Ashley and Kobe, I knew they weren't the model of health, perfect health in a relationship. No one is. But I thought they were healthy enough to be able to do that. Right. And what I have a hard time with is that how all of a sudden everything flipped on its head.28:08So to me, there was a lack of honesty going on throughout it. There was a lack of Kobe coming to the table and saying, Guys, this is where I'm really, truly at. And I can't produce that episode.28:25I can't produce that course right now with you guys, because this is where I'm truly feeling and where I'm truly at myself, the audience and Ashlyn, I think we feel betrayed a little bit of like, oh, my gosh, this is actually the truth. Right. And we still don't know all of the truth. We still don't know all of the reasons why.28:56And we don't need to know. Kobe doesn't need to share those things if he doesn't want to. And I think it would have been good for him to share at least his feelings as to where he was at without moving forward so far along this process of acting like a couple in recovery. Right. I wonder, Brandon, and this is just me putting myself in the potential shoes.29:27If you've had the courage to put yourself out there and share the way that you do, and then you start to actually build this kind of, like, hopeful following. I can imagine there must have been a ton of pressure to need to have all the answers and to be able to appear a certain way. It's kind of like me being a marriage therapist if I've got marriage problems. The last thing I want is for people to see that, because then what does that say about my career?29:55And it almost adds a whole other level of pressure to it. I can't imagine. Tyler, I think you bring up a great point. Like, here goes this kind of organic thing, this betrayed addicted expert. And yet deep down behind the scenes, there's this deep pain of ultimately not wanting to be married. That's a tough position to be in.30:22And I can imagine kind of the confusion and the torment that was going on. I just feel like it went on for too long and got deeper and deeper and deeper, right. Well, the pressure got bigger, right? Pressure got bigger as the platform grew. Kind of like Dear Evan Hanson, for those who have seen the movie where he gets into it into a process and he actually sees some good in the process, even though it's not 100% open or transparent.30:57And he gets himself wrapped up in deeper and deeper, and there's more and more pressure until it all finally kind of breaks. That is a great analogy, because Evan Hanson still did a lot of good even with this big constructed thing that he did. Right. And I can imagine that's a tough position to be in.31:20Yeah, I guess I guess I'm just sitting here thinking and just having an empathetic moment of, like, how much pressure there would be, especially what's true is that when you get into recovery, you realize there's a whole lot of stuff under the surface that you didn't realize you were going to have to conquer and deal with. And all of a sudden that stuff starts to rise. And if you're needing to look a certain way in this case, maybe because of the platform itself, then it almost inhibits the ability to do the work that demands coming out of the dark and getting honest.31:56Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I can see why you would feel that way. And I can also empathize that maybe if some of that was true, it would make some sense to me. Now, if Kobe were in that position, we can empathize and understand. It still doesn't make it right. Right. It still doesn't make it okay to act like things are a certain way when they're not right. So we can understand why.32:25But it doesn't make it right. Right. Because ultimately it leads to the feelings of betrayal by the audience, by Ashlyn, even by me. Right. Okay. I want to shift gears a little bit and just ask another question here. Random. And this kind of has to do with the most recent episode that was just posted by Kobe. I got to tell you, as I was listening to it, I'm listening to it from three different angles. I'm listening to it for myself.32:55I'm listening to it from the perspective of caring about you and Kobe. And I'm also listening to it from the perspective of a therapist. And the therapist in me was kind of wondering because just the curiosity comes out in me wondering how it was that doing the right kinds of recovery work, that idea of his hers and ours, let's say his hers and ours would come to the point of it being in his best interest to divorce his wife.33:34And he used some language from John Gottman, the Four Horsemen, that kind of criticism, contempt, Stonewalling, all of that stuff as elements of being in their marriage, maybe on both sides of it there. But then it sounds like I'm doing all this amazing recovery work and I'm coming to know who I am more and more and more.34:01And the more I came to know who I was, the more I realized that I needed to leave. What's your take on that? Yeah, I appreciate this question a lot. I think this is at the crux of it ultimately. And from listening to Kobe'sepisode, I believe him that he thinks that he got strong enough to actually have some boundaries. I think that's what he believes.34:33The boundaries led to divorce then. Yeah, that's what he believes. Okay. I actually see it a little bit differently in that. And ultimately it only matters to Kobe. Right, right. But I want our audience to understand something, some things about this. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse with Gottman. It's great stuff, Stonewalling.35:02Contempt, criticism, and defensiveness. What Gottman says is if you have those things in your marriage continually, you have something like a 90% chance of getting divorced. And there's this kind of subtle, sophisticated victim play that Kobe does, which is I'm not going to say anything about Ashlyn, but I'm going to drop that.35:31I'm basically going to say that she was that way in our marriage. And I got strong and so I got away from her. And there's so much more to the story than that. This is from your perspective. When you look at criticism and contempt, it can be real.36:00That could be happening in your marriage or it can be perceived. Okay, explain that a little bit further. For example, my wife could give me a bad look. It's a contemptuous look, like roll her eyes at you or something. Sure. Now when she gives me that look, maybe she has indigestion. Right? But according to really my strength and my masculinity and who I am, I'm going to either be able to tolerate her giving me a look or saying something a certain way to me, or I'm going to interpret that as criticism and contempt.36:40I'm going to make that into that. If I'm very sensitive, if I don't know who I am, if I feel like I'm just a broken man. And so I believe that a healthy relationship is one that can navigate those waters where if my wife gives me a dirty look, that I can go to her and say, hey, talk to me, tell me where you're at.37:07Help me understand to be boundary enough on my own to let's say she's frustrated. Hey, I'm frustrated with you. Okay? Talk through that so we don't hold contempt. What I heard Kobe say was our relationship was full of that. So I got out because I was in recovery. What I saw was him not doing that work with her, in stepping into that wrestle and that struggle and creating strength together through those things.37:42So you didn't have those things in the relationship. What I saw him do, instead of stepping into that and working through that with her, I saw him bail. I saw him ditch out, and I saw him not be loyal to a woman who has been through Helenback with him two affairs. They had a recommitment ceremony.38:08I mean, I could go on and on and on, and I saw all of a sudden he decided, hey, this is the thing that I can pinpoint to say why I want out. And I think there's something missing. What do you think there's some truth missing? I don't know exactly, Tyler, but I think it's something like, I don't want to be married anymore. I want freedom. It could be anything. It could be some crazy secret behind the scenes.38:38I'm not accusing Kobe of anything. I'm not saying that. But to just say the only reason I ended up uncoupled or divorced was because Ashland is this way in our marriage is not true. My experience of Ashlyn is somebody whocould be contemptuous and critical at times. Yes. As I can be to my spouse, and my spouse can be to me. Right? Sure.39:09But Ashley is a person who is genuine and who is real in her self reflection. I saw her make so many shifts and reflected on herself and made changes in that relationship for the four years that I worked with them. She was absolutely workable and humble enough as a spouse to have a healthy relationship with. And I wasn't Kobe, I wasn't in the relationship with Ashland. I don't get it exactly.39:39But I saw a lot of it. Right. I'm not saying there wasn't any defensiveness or criticism or those type of things in that marriage, but I didn't see it being unworkable. And I saw a man who considered himself to be broken and weak act broken and weak with the way that he exited. That's what I experienced.40:08That's your perspective. Not a man who thought that he was broken and weak get strong enough and in recovery to leave. That's not what I saw. Okay. Or experience. Okay. In some ways, Brandon, I'm wondering this is actually a pretty interesting principle. Maybe we'll have to do a whole episode on this, just this subject a little bit is like when do you know when to stay and when you know when to leave? And what I'm hearing you say is that it's kind of in your mind from your perspective.40:37It's kind of a travesty that it ended the way that it did because you could look at both of them and realize that that marriage was absolutely worth saving because there was willingness to do the work, even though there might have been work there to do. Is that what you're saying? Kind of. I mean, I don't know if I'd say that because I'm actually glad it ended. I think it's good for both of them. I'm glad Kobe.41:07Like I say to people, I never tell you to get divorced or not. Like you between God make that decision. And if Coby really felt like that was his decision between him and God, then that's what he needed to do. Yes. Good for him. That's awesome. But what he doesn't need to do is paint this picture as to why he did it was out of recovery and strength to get away from the evil Ashland. You know what I mean? Yeah. And he didn't say evil Ashland.41:35He never said anything like that. But he subtly implies I had to get out because of the misery that I was in by being around her. Yeah, right. Okay. So I'm now having this image in my head of like in recovery when let's just flip it for the second and say, okay, the betrayed spouse is finally learning how to be grounded and set boundaries. And finally they get to this point of like saying I'm going to set boundaries and they go home and they lay the smack down on their partner and be like, we're never going to talk about these things again or you're never going to do this again or whatever.42:11And because they feel so empowered because they finally learned this principle of boundaries, they don't realize that maybe it's not actually a real boundary. Thank you it feels good because they're working their recovery, even though it's not necessarily quite nestled into what would be good health yet or real effectively. They're not stepping into their strength yet. Okay. Strength. That's it. It's one thing to go and set a boundary that says you're never going to talk to me again.42:38It's another thing to set a boundary that says, hey, here's the conditions bywhich we can operate in our relationship. And I'm willing to be here if those conditions are open. Absolutely. But that takes strength. And that takes knowing who you are, and that takes knowing what your values are, to be able to set those boundaries and to navigate that and to navigate it together as both partners. I mean, that's an interdependent relationship. Basically, what I saw Kobe do is go from a codependent relationship to an independent relationship.43:09Right. I'm anxiously attached to you, Ashlyn. You know what I'm totally avoidant? Boom, divorce, boom all the way to the other side. And somewhere in the messy middle is where most of recovery really happens. In most relationships, for most people, that's the essence of I mean, I hate to say that, but that's the essence of even the best of marriages. Exactly. Right. If my wife has contempt to me, then for me to step into that friction with her and say, let's work on what's going on here.43:39Yeah, what's going on? And I'm going to be boundary. I'm going to be able to empathize and listen and speak my truth. And that's not going to all feel fine and dandy and good the whole time we go through that. It's going to be hard. But that takes strength, right? Yeah. And that is a person who is in recovery is the person that will step into that. Right.44:06So I'm not by any means saying someone should stay in a relationship and be abused. Sometimes boundaries lead to I have to divorce you. Sure. I need that space. But what I am suggesting is to be able to step into a relationship with somebody and navigate that. Right. Okay.44:29All right, Brandon, we're kind of running on time a little bit here, but is there anything else on your mind or your heart since you're the one who's decided to kind of want to come and share your perspective on things, is there anything else in your mind or your heart that you'd want for any of the listeners to hear or know or feel from you? I don't think so.44:58If any damage has been done by anything that I've done, then I just sincerely apologize. And I didn't know how to navigate what was going on. I've never been a co host with a couple and built a platform. I was never trained for that. And I think I made some bad decisions along the way as we exited working together with the two of them.45:28And I'm sorry because I know how delicate this topic is and how important it is to have experts and have people guide you and direct you and help give you hope. So if I was a part of breaking that down in any way, then I apologize. Okay.45:54All right, Brandon, I know that there's probably a whole bunch of different kinds of emotional response going on right now from lots of different places. We and you are open to feedback, comments, questions. What's the best way probably would real talk recovery be the best way to send some of those things or Where's the best way to share any of those feelings or thoughts? Yeah, absolutely. Find us on Real talk recovery.46:25Go over there and you can share whatever questions you have with us. All right, you guys, thank you for allowing us to be a part of your lives. Thank you for the feedback that you give to us. We are grateful to be in this journey. We're grateful to be in the battle. And if this meant anything to you or you know anyone else who this would benefit from, please share it with them. Awesome.46:54See you guys.
