#119: Is It Healthy For My Kids To See That I’m Not Perfect?

00:00Why is it healthy for my kids to see that I'm not perfect? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your success with Real Recovery.00:33Do your kids think you're not perfect? They know I'm not perfect 100%. Well, then you're much different as a dad than you were as a brother. Hey, I've learned a lot, and that's what recovery teaches. That's awesome.00:51Oh, man. So, Brandon, you sent some pictures over the weekend, and I know that people are like, well, we're not going to talk about pictures, brand and scent. But you sent a picture of a meal that you made a blast from the past on our childhood. So I wanted to just shout out to dad for teaching you how to make Eggs Mcgruter. That's a Harris family recipe. So that's for Mom's side, that was an Uncle Jean recipe.01:18So shout out to Uncle Jean for the Eggs McGruder. A real quick tip, you guys. Here's the recipe of the day. You make some cream of mushroom soup. Campbell the cheap stuff. You drop about three eggs in it and you poach them. So you let them just kind of Cook there in the soup. Bake yourself some toast, any kind of toast. Then you butter that toast. You dig out a few of those eggs out of that cream mushroom soup.01:49I like to put a little cheese on top. Voila breeder. That's a Patrick family staple. Growing up, we joke about we were raised so poor, but one of our favorite meals was bread and milk. Get a loaf of Wonder Bread and break it up in a bowl and throw some milk over the top and call it a meal. Oh, yeah, that was dinner. And I used to look forward to that, too. Yeah.02:19We were raised on Kansas. You name it. I still tell my kids to this day, like when I go out, like in the mountains and I take a can of oysters and crackers and I tell my kids it's the best snack ever. They look at me like I'm crazy. Yeah. And you just think all day. Yeah. So anyways. Yeah. I hope you all enjoy that recipe. I know this is a cooking show today. Yeah.02:49Okay. So to be an imperfect parent, I think that a lot of parents can say, yeah, I show up imperfect, but then how they're actually showing up with their kids is I kind of have it all figured out, and I have all the answers. And I'm here to make sure that you look at me as this strong, perfect person who's working through all their stuff.03:19I think it's absolutely critical for parents to not just show their imperfections, but to, on a personal level, understand their shadow and embrace that shadow and know that I am imperfect and that I make mistakes with a child. If you show up the opposite of that.03:47What happens, Tyler? Well, I can tell you that it sends messages to the child that the child will actually probably struggle with later on in life as a result,because they're going to see that they should have everything together, that they shouldn't make mistakes, that they can't be imperfect. Think about what a child is. They're looking up to a parental figure and they're saying, I want to be just like them.04:16It's like the whole Cats in the Cradle song that makes every single person cry every time they hear it. It's like the little boys looking up at the dad going, I'm going to be like him. I want to be like him. And when then you grow into your older age and you go into adulthood and you realize that you're not everything that you thought your parents projected you're, it becomes its own form of kind of an identity crisis and a challenge.04:48Would you rather raise, Tyler, a child who acts perfect, who acts like they got it all together, who doesn't show any Blemish, they get the perfect grades. They work hard to be good at other things, sports and things.05:05They act perfect versus a child who learns how to be a vulnerable human being, who can realize that I do struggle here where I struggled there, I do give in to temptation here and there. I lose control of my emotions. These things really trigger me, and I oftentimes can lose control of my emotions. Which child would you prefer?05:33Well, Brandon, let's back up to answer that question a little bit and let's talk about the pressures that come with parenting first. So both of us have kids. We both love our kids. We both feel as though in some sense, our kids are part of our stewardship from God. Right. And so in a sense, we've been gifted these children that we're supposed to raise and help them to create amazing lives and become something beneficial to the world and to have an impact and leave a Mark on the world for good.06:08And where I think most of us as parents go is we take that calling from God, so to speak, or that duty, and we start to measure our success as parents by the outcomes of our children. So in a certain sense, most parents would say, well, Geez, Brandon, I want the second child. But most parents actually reinforce the first child because the parent is actually trying to define themselves as a successful parent rather than understanding the principles that lead to a successful person.06:44And so when you were describing the first child, I was like, well, be like, it sounds like, you know me. I was that kid. I was the perfect kid. I never let anybody see my mistakes. I excelled at everything I did. And if I didn't excel, I wouldn't do it. And I pleased everybody. I made everyone happy with me. Most parents would take a look at a kid like me and say, that kid has got it all together.07:14He's the child you want. Right. But what those people didn't see and what not even our parents could see was that on the inside there was this you've seen Encanto, that song that everybody is connected to, that pressure song. That was it. I was cracking on the inside because I couldn't actually be everything that I thought I needed to be in order to be good enough for everybody. Right.07:42And so, yes, the answer to your question is we want to raise children that are allowed to be human so that they can adopt what's called the growth mindset instead of the fixed mindset. It's interesting how you describe that, Tyler, because we want to raise children who can show how imperfect they are, because we know that that's healthy in the long run for them aschildren, as they grow into adulthood, they're going to navigate this world so much better when they can own their flaws and trials and mistakes.08:20But a narcissistic parenting system would say different. My child is about me, my child performing, being good, getting the good grades. I need that to happen so that I think that I'm a good parent. Yeah. Do you see how that's. Yeah. You're using a big word that a lot of people hate called narcissism. Explain that. Explain what you mean by that a little bit, Brandon.08:45Well, there's a difference between loving your child and being connected to them and who they are and what they need and who their soul is and just loving them because they're them and you're you and you can see them and feel them and love them. There's a big difference between that. And here's the narcissism of it. My child is there for me to validate me and who I am in my work.09:15Right. So I need my child to be perfect in order for the world to see that I'm a good parent. Right. It's a tricky thing because it can look like in quotation marks love, because it can look like I want my child to do really good. I'm taking them to their ball games. I'm pushing them to do their homework. But if the intention behind that is child, I need you to be perfect so that then I'm validated that's about you.09:48And that's the narcissist. Okay. So if I'm a therapist and everybody knows I'm a therapist, which means and I'm a marriage and family therapist, and I do anything but show up to Church on Sundays and sit on the front row and make sure I'm at every one of my kids activities and make sure that every one of my kids is engaged in good things, that none of them ever do anything to hurt people's feelings or make mistakes. That's going to validate me as a good person and a good therapist.10:20That's what you're saying. And you're gagging like people who aren't seeing the video. You're like, gagging and pretending to throw up as I'm talking. Yeah, because it's all a show. The reality is, and this is what perfectionism is all about. We're talking about it in the context of parenting. Right. I need to show up as the perfect parent, and I need to make sure my children are perfect.10:47Well, what's underneath perfectionism is actual. It's a real deterioration or a corrosion of an understanding of self worth. And so it's kind of this manipulative play in order to try to be okay and you'll never get it there. You can force your kids to be perfect. You can act perfect yourself as a parent.11:15But even if your kid grows up to be a Nobel Peace Prize winner, you're still going to be left with those same feelings. They can't do enough in order to resolve those wounds inside of you. And so the scenario you just described, Tyler, the reason I'm dry heaving is because it hurts not only you, but it hurts your children as well.11:49And there's ripple effects to it, and you're starting to create patterns that they're going to start to show up as parents in their life, which they'll pass down to their children as well. I just want to ask you what some of those ripples are, Brandon. What is the actual ripple effect? So I've heard so many times, it's kind of the cliche stuff of like, I just want my dad's validation.12:22I just wish my mom could actually connect to me and not be so concerned about herself all the time. And so when a child lacks actual love, then they start to seek it out in other ways or they start to shut down.12:42So the ripple effects, it leads to things like addiction and depression and isolation and not going for things like not creating business and purpose and things like that in your life, because the little tea trauma wounds of this perfectionistic parenting, right. That's what I'm excellent.13:09So as you're talking, Brandon, there's a couple of words that are kind of stringing together in my mind that go together. Perfectionism could be lumped into fixed mindset and shame in the sense that perfectionism is one part of the teeter totter of shame, where it's like, I'm going to be perfect. I'm going to be perfect. I'm going to be perfect. That's called the control part. And then eventually it's like, I can't do it anymore. Boom, I snap. And then there's the release part, and it's it's this wide gap of, like, there's not a lot of middle path there.13:40And it's tied to the fixed mindset, which is that the only way I'm good is if I'm good at these things. The only way I'm worthy of loving. I should be this way. I should be better. There's never ending, constantly moving target towards perfection that you're never going to hit. And it's being pursued from a place of already not enough, right.14:03On the other hand, there's these other words that are going through my head that would be things like growth mindset is symbolic to shame resilience, which is connected to reality, letting ourselves be human. And you look at it from like a Christian perspective.14:26Every one of us basically came to this world for a reason, which was to get a body and to use our choice to gain experience, to understand the nature of God more fully, to learn and grow. Right. So the growth mindset demands that we embrace our frailties as some of the opportunity for our learning and growth. Yes.14:57To go along with what you're saying, Tyler. When I'm a parent and I model this shame and fear and control model of perfectionism, I'm teaching my children how to be defensive to reality, how not to take ownership, how not to take accountability, how not to actually be vulnerable. So I'm teaching them those things and I'm teaching them that this is the way that you survive in this world.15:27This is how you get through this is how you get through a relationship or whatever. You just do not own your stuff and you act like you're perfect and you can see how that could play out in future relationships and things like that. To get a little preachy here on you, Tyler, when you talk. I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. The central nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ is the assumption that we are imperfect and that we're going to make mistakes.15:59And I think the best example we can give to our children is an example of somebody who falls into the arms of the Savior and uses the atonement. And so to show our children how fallible I truly am and how broken I truly am as a human being is okay, like I am okay. And I'm loved in that place.16:25And if I can show my children that and they see that hopefully what they learn is I can do the same thing that Dad's doing. I can fall, I can fail. I cansin, I can make all these mistakes, and I can get back up again because I have love behind me, I have Christ behind me. I have the atonement behind me. It's okay. And because it's okay.16:53Now, the whole growth mindset side of things that you're talking about, Tyler, fits in perfectly right there. It's a perfect fit for the atonement. It's a perfect fit where it's like, man, this whole life is just an experience of growth, and we're able to grow together as a family because we can own our shadow.17:15It's an interesting thought with what you're bringing up there, Brandon and I'll just stay on this kind of like spiritual thread for a minute, and let's just assume that the atonement of Jesus Christ is the most vast, uninspiring power that there is in the world, the love of Christ. It seems sad to me that the only reason why that power doesn't get accessed is because I choose not to access it because I have to be perfect first.17:49So there's this natural resource that's occurring, and it's free for everybody but my own way of viewing the world, my own way of viewing myself, my own way of viewing the world. My own agency tells me not to accept it. I'm going to connect the dots back to the topic we're talking about here.18:11That's part of what happens when we try to perfect our children and with what you're saying I think is really important here, is that when I'm able to show that I'm a human being, that I have my own frailties, that I am trying really hard, that I can get back up, and that I'm willing to access and accept the power of that atonement, I am now no longer the end all for my child. I'm actually directing them to the true source.18:40I'm directing them to something bigger than myself, which is the best thing I could possibly ever do for my child. Because at the end of the day, I'm frail. I'm going to hurt them. I'm going to wound them. I'm going to make my own mistakes, and they're going to need something or somebody bigger than me to get their answers from right? Yes. I joke with my kids, saving up money for their College. And I tell them, I say, that's not for College.19:09That's for your therapy, because I'm screwing up so bad as a dad. I'm kind of tongue in cheek joking, but not totally. I mean, part of me is like, I know, hey, I'm doing the best I can. I love you guys. And I tell them all the time, you need to know that I don't love you perfectly because I'm imperfect. I'm a human. You need to know God does love you perfectly.19:39And when you're frustrated with me, you feel like I can't quite give you everything you need. I hope that, you know, God can. For me to be able to say to them that I can't give you everything you need does take a little bit on my part. It's some humility, but honesty that I can't. I am imperfect. I love my children imperfectly. I hate to say that because I love them so much and I want them to be loved perfectly.20:10But it's true. Like, I am a man. I am who I am. If I can't own that, then I can't apply the atonement. I can't teach them to go outside of me to get their answer right. I know we're getting I actually think we're talking about parenting, but I think this thing that we're on right now actually has threads into our own personal lives so deeply, though, in terms of where we can find and access real freedom and real power and give ourselves permission to be the work in progress that we were designed to be.20:52So I got a question for you that's coming up as you're talking, Brandon, and I'm thinking, like, if I'm a parent that's listening to this right now, there's a yeah, but going through my mind right now. So help me find this distinction for a minute. All right. I can get behind you. Our kids are definitely hardwired for struggle. They came to a world where there's going to be struggle. I get all of that. But why should I be the one to cause them more struggle?21:19By admitting my failures or letting them see my weaknesses? Or, like, shouldn't I be protecting them? Shouldn't I be raising them in a place that's safe? Easy there, easy. Pump the brakes. You admitting your failures is not causing them more struggle. Explain that. That doesn't cause them more struggle. You having failures does wound them. I guess the point I'm making is, in fact, you not admitting your failures.21:50Continue explaining them deeper. The fact of the matter is, I do make mistakes, and I love the four agreements. Don Miguel Ruiz, do your best as a father. I will do my best. I don't throw my hands in the air and say, well, I'm an imperfect human. So, like, whatever, I'll be a horrible dad. That's not what I do. I do my best. But when I do my best, I fall short.22:21And for me to own that. Yeah, I fall short here and acknowledge and apologize and be accountable and understand where I'm falling short is absolutely not just good because, yeah, my kids know that dad can own his stuff, but it's good parenting. It's stopping the bleeding. It's wounding them less because I'm showing them, look, this is what it means to be a human being.22:56Admitting that I am imperfect is not wounding them. Okay, so another question. Follow up to that that I can imagine some of our listeners would say is, well, then Where's the line in what you disclose versus what you don't disclose to your children?23:20It reminds me, I've heard this several times. I heard last week, hey, dad just moved out. We have a 13 year old and eleven year old, and we have a six year old and a four year old. We're just telling people that he's off on a work trip. That's what we're telling our kids. He's off on a work trip. Yeah, but what do you know?23:46Like, the 13 year old kind of can tell. There's tension in the house. There's stuff going on, and dad goes on this suspicious work trip. Right. Well, okay. Is it better to act perfect? Nope. Just work tripping. It that's all I'm doing, just making money for the family, or is it better to own some struggle?24:16The reason why I bring up this example with a six year old and a four year old and a 13 year old and eleven year old is you need to gauge your children's level of maturity or level of tolerance to process and understand reality. And oftentimes where we go with it is we automatically defend ourselves and say, no, I'm not going to own my stuff because I'm protecting my 13 year old.24:49Chances are, and this isn't every 13 year old girl, but chances are that 13 year old girl is much more connected and intuitive and understanding of what's going on than what you think. Right? So to the 13 year old, I might disclose my imperfections one way, and to the six year old, I might disclose my imperfections another way. Yeah, right. Do you see what I'm saying?25:18So I might go to her and sit down and have a really Frank discussion and say, mom and dad have been struggling, and I'm having to sleep over at Grandma and Grandpa's house until we can start to sort some of this out. Okay. And that's better than pretending to that 13 year old, she's going to feel less like, does that make sense in a certain way?25:45Or she's going to feel some level of gaslighting that's going on because she's going to be saying, my gut saying that something's off, but everyone's telling me that it's rainbows and roses. And so in a sense, she's being taught how to be gas lit, so to speak, is what you're saying she is. But on the flip side of that, let's just knock down to like, the four year old. You're not going to go sit your four year old down and you're not going to go and say, all right, so not only are we separated because we got marriage issues, son, but it's because your Daddy did something called infidelity.26:20And we're going to explain what infidelity is to you right now as a four year old. And then we're going, that's not going to be appropriate for the four year old. It's probably not even appropriate for the 13 year old. But Tyler, as a parent, you're not avoiding that conversation because you're trying to act perfect. You're not having that conversation with a four year old because it won't help at all. Right.26:46But then I could also say, well, how does shattering my 13 year old's world by saying, hey, we've got marital problems help my 13 year old, too? And what I think I hear you saying is they already kind of know something's up. It would be better to shoot straight with them. You don't need to tell your 13 year old, you don't need to tell your 13 year old you got marriage problems. They know. And you might not necessarily go and disclose everything to the 13 year old either. It's not like you go and sit down and be like, all right, guys, we're going to talk a little bit about these exact details of everything that's happened.27:17It's okay to stay general as long as it's honest and to say, hey, look, we are working through some hard things right now. And I am sleeping at Grandma and Grandpa's house for a while. But that's because we're working on some things and just know that we've got you guys in mind and we're going to be doing the best we can. Right. We had a discussion on Disclosure on another episode, and we were talking about it and how uncomfortable it is.27:52And the reason why it's so uncomfortable is because it's hard realities that are painful. And so nobody wants to drop hard realities on your children that are painful. That's not fun. Nobody ever wants to do that. And so it's easy to justify it away and say, no, I'm protecting them. Protecting your children is not protecting your children by teaching them how to avoid reality because it's painful.28:21That's not protecting your children. So I don't think you need to go jump into all the details and this and that with your children. But when your 13 year old knows when they feel it, when they can see what's going on, an acknowledgment of that emotion and that pain that they're feeling and a validation of that is absolutely important. Like, it's okay to be feeling how you're feeling.28:51There's a reason why you're feeling that way. And I'm going to be honest with you. We're doing this and we're doing that, and we're working on itthis way or that way. But you're feeling that way for a reason, right? That's good for that 13 year old. And you don't have to get into the specifics of the little nitty gritty details of what's going on with it. But to validate the emotional piece for that child takes you owning that mom and dad struggle. Mom and dad are having problems.29:21Mom and dad are suffering. We're not perfect. Right. And that will help your 13 year actually feel safe. What it will do is it'll keep trust intact. And trust is needed for that secure attachment that we all want to have in our relationships. So, yeah, I hear what you're saying, Brandon. I think you're spot on with it. I think there is some nuance in there in terms of how you disclose. I want to bring something else up along these lines.29:52I know you're a big energy guy. It's about the energy you show up with. And this kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier in the podcast today is why are you disclosing? Whatever you disclose and share with your kids is just as important as how you do it, too. Where if I'm going to my children and I'm like, I get off this podcast and somehow we've had enough influence for someone to go like, okay, open book to my kids, but I'm going to do it so that I'm a good person.30:21That's not going to be real healthy for your kids. But if you're going to do that for your kids so that they can understand that there's a process by which you can grow there's a process by which you can accept failures and weakness and a commitment to doing your best, and you're doing it for their sake to do the learning. So that's going to be a much better reason if I go make a mistake with my daughters. All right. Which I do all the time.30:50And I go to them and I say afterwards, I'm like, oh, man, I snapped at my one daughter. I'm such a horrible dad. And I go to my daughter and I'm like, will you please forgive me? I'm such a bad dad. That's actually not going to be very helpful. But if I go to them and I say, hey, look, I totally made a mistake. I want you to know that I'm sorry that this was not your fault. This is what I wish I would have done differently. And I just want you to know that I still love you and I hope that you can forgive me.31:19What I'm now doing is I'm showing up in strength even though it's in my weakness and I'm still apologizing and I'm still owning it, but I'm doing it for them and for their sake, instead of for them to tell me that I'm still a good dad. Right? Yes. I think you're making a really good point. What is the intention behind the ownership of the imperfection if I'm owning my imperfections to my kids all the time?31:51Because I want them to feel sorry for me and I want them to caretake for me, and that's the only way that I really get love and connection from them as a dad is to tell them how horrible I am, and then they tell me how great I am. You're consuming your child at that point? No, I'm just on the other end of it now. I'm consuming them by groveling and begging for them to validate me still. Right.32:18And so I'm not loving them by setting that type of an example. When we talk about owning it, it's interesting. Brennan Brown and the way she words this is kind of confusing, so you got to think it through a little bit. But she says the most accomplished people who do the most good are the greatest negotiators and compromisers.32:50And so what she's saying is I would reword it this way in terms of our topic,the most successful parents are the ones who absolutely are vulnerable. And so you can show up in strength while owning your weakness. So that's the paradox in it all is, I love you, child. I love you so much.33:19And I can show you that you can work through your imperfections because I can model that to you, because I love you so much. And I'm not going to consume you. I'm not going to use you for me, but I will let you know that. Hey, let's take a look at these wounds together. As I wound you. There's a whole lot of messiness in there, and a whole lot of paradox there.33:52Tyler, this conversation has been fun to have, I think, as we're having it, like, so much is coming up for me just about parenting. I have a lot of parent guilt. I worry a lot. I'm grandma Patrick's grandson, So it's just, like, worry about the kids constantly. And so it's good for me to just talk to you.34:17Me too. What do you think grandma Patrick would say to the advice that we've been giving today? Well, she just loved Nomad, like, talk about non consummatory love. I didn't feel like she was ever taking from me when it came to, like, she never used me for herself.34:51It was just she just saw everything in me. Like, I was amazing. And grandma, I think, was good at owning her imperfections. She was so humble and not prideful and not trying to talk about humble where they lived and the way they lived and things like that. There's a reason they ate bread and milk, So they were really poor and humble, yet great example, I would say, knowing grandma Patrick, the way that I knew her, she was still extremely protective of us.35:28But the difference, I think, is that she also did everything she did. You could feel it from her, from a place of her genuine love and concern for us and not necessarily for herself. Right. And here we are as getting older and older, really old, and we still know and feel what that love feels like.35:56It's still there within us Because we experience that, and so that's how powerful that is. I wish I could love my children like she loved me, and I hope that I do, and I'm sure that I can't. It's funny that as we're talking that two middle aged grown men can sit here, and I think I'm feeling this way, and I imagine you are, too, that I'd love to just go back down to that little two bedroom house and just be in that space of where that energy of love really was when we were kids.36:32It was its own safe haven, Even though there was nothing there of real substance Other than the feeling of love. As long as it takes me to step to get a hot dog and a big Bolt beforehand. Yes, I'm exactly. Those are good times. All right, you guys, well, you're perfect in your imperfections as parents, and so give yourself a little bit of slack.37:05We're all screwing our kids up. We're all wounding our kids. But do the best you can and just love your children as much as you possibly can, and we're all in this together, so I appreciate you listening today, And I hope this was the best. You have a good week to you and to your children as well.37:25See you.