#109: We Both Have A History Of Betrayal. Where Do We Begin?

00:00We both have history of betrayal. Where do we begin? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your success stories is with Real Recovery.00:32Welcome to 2022. This is the first time we're recording since the new Year. Yeah, happy New Year. Happy new Year to you, too, man. Was it a good one? Did you party hard or what? We had an awesome new year. I know you can get a little wild.00:49Yeah, you get a little wild when you got four daughters playing just dance for most of the night. Yeah. Speaking of wild, you had the one that had a nice wild game. Yeah, it was awesome, though. It was a lot of fun with my family and stuff. So we've both been with our kids, our families. Nothing better than that, right? Yeah. It was a great holiday. I'm glad you had a good time, too. Okay, well, I say we dive right into it.01:21Let's jump back in. We got some good questions. We got a great guest on today. So, Amanda, welcome to the show. It's good to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. If you could just give us a bit of background as to what's going on with you and then ask us any questions that you have. Well, both my husband and I have history of betrayal, and we are looking to get into a couple of counseling.01:59The first counselor didn't work out, but now we're just wondering, where do we even start? Okay, so, Amanda, give me a bit more background. So you want to get into counseling? You say there's history on both sides of the trail. If you could give me, like, what do you mean by that?02:23Well, a few years ago, I had an online emotional connection with somebody, but that ended after about four weeks. And then a year after that, I discovered that my husband had an illegal porn addiction.02:54Okay. I imagine your world was rocked pretty hard. Yes. Part of that discovery was included by the FBI. Wow. So that was very traumatic, both to me and our kids. Kind of went with the rollers punches kind of a thing.03:25But, yeah, it was definitely a bombshell. Yeah. So your betrayal of him, what was the aftermath of that? What was the fallout? What happened? Well, I ended it, and he's always been one to compartmentalize.04:04After ending communication with the affair partner, we got back to a sense of normal fee. Okay. But then probably, I'd say a month and a half, and then it was just never addressed as far as ocean.04:29It just swept under the rug. Yes. And even though I've kind of prompted them like, hey, we need to kind of nip this in the bud kind of a thing. And we need to get into some counseling and work through this because youare going to have some pens out promotions whether you admit to it or not. Right. He would continually say, no, I'm fine. That's fine. And leave it at that.04:59Okay. So just to sweep it under the rug, pretend like everything's okay, I want to ask you and I'll get to kind of your side of being betrayed in a minute. But I want to ask you what led up to the emotional affair? Why did you find yourself in that position?05:27The fair itself was more or less, I guess what I've labeled it as a relationship suicide. I was done with our marriage. There was no communication. There was no sharing of emotions. I felt alone.05:52We were just two roommates going about our daily habits. I wanted out. I was more or less done. That's what I was wondering. Amanda, I don't want to go down the road of blaming him for what you did. Right. Right. We're definitely both to blame as far as the communication.06:22It was just something we never really learned to do. And I take full responsibility in what I contributed. Sure. I think we could put the blame to the side for a minute and just look at how desperate you were feeling and how alone you were feeling.06:50And could you have handled it differently? Could you have communicated to him, had more boundaries, kind of stepped into the conflict of how that might feel for him? Sure, you could have. But the reality was you were feeling so alone and done. And I like what how you call it relationship suicide. You were trying to stir up the dust. You were trying to be done, and you didn't know what to do.07:21And I can imagine, Amanda, what your relationship was like, considering the secrecy and the lies and the stuff that was going on behind the scenes that you had no idea about. Right, right. Yeah. I have a thought or two as well, Amanda, but before that, what is this emotion that's coming up right now? What are you experiencing right now?07:45I think some of the emotions that never got dealt with from that time, like I never really dealt with my own feeling of the trail at that time, just feeling so alone. And normally we're supposed to be there for each other.08:29I did the betrayal, but I still have some almost like anger and sadness, frustration, am concerning why.08:46I get it. Yeah, I think you nailed it. What's coming up right now is the stuff that probably would have been better served to be being processed in the beginning, but there didn't seem to have a place to have it being processed. And this is just kind of a little side note for some of our listeners. But there's some research out of Stanford that shows the difference between men and women and why they have affairs.09:16And it's actually extremely common for men to have affairs because they just want something new or different or novel, but it's more common for women to have an affair when they're already leaving or almost out of their relationship. And it's almost like they're hedging their bets because they already see the death of the relationship they're in. And it sounds like you kind of find yourself in that category and you're not alone. This is something that's common.09:44And I think what Brandon is getting at is that the whole reason you're on the show today is because you're looking for a chance to say, where do we start in order to confront the things that are coming up now, like, I can't bury them anymore. We don't want to bury them anymore. We tried that. It doesn't work. It's time to actually step into this. And now what's the course we can take? Where now there's betrayal on both sides. So in essence, we've got four recoveries.10:14We've got the betrayal recovery and the healing recovery on both sides. That's really where you're at today, and I'm glad that you're here and so grateful that you're willing to share yourself this way. There's this truth that I think is hard for a lot of us human beings, which is the pathway to healing and growth is through facing reality, Amanda.10:41It's no wonder to me that pretty quickly as you talk about the reality of the situation that you've been in in your marriage, that the feelings start coming, the emotions start coming because you've probably gotten really good at stuffing, hiding, pretending like just being tough and moving forward for the kids and all of those things because that's what you've needed to do to survive. But in some ways, you're kind of answering your own question of where do I start?11:11How do I start to move forward? And one of the first places to start is to actually grieve some and to feel the pains of the reality of the situation that you've been in and to fully process those feelings. So then you can really start to move forward, not in a place of fear, but in a place of growth and moving forward in that way. So does that make sense? Yeah, it does.11:45So get us up to speed a little bit, Amanda, on what's going on with him and kind of your relationship now. Do you want to make it work with your husband? Is that the ultimate goal? Where are you at with things right now? I've gone back and forth, but as of now, he's considering what he's done.12:13He's been through a psychological evaluation, and he falls in a very small category of people that are likely to make a full recovery and actually succeed in not reoffending. He's not capable of hurting someone.12:44He just got caught up in the addiction of porn, and it went too far. But, yeah, right now we're still in the process of waiting for court proceedings to move forward. And right now we are actually relationship wise, in a really good place, okay.13:17And we both recognize that. And so I think we both have a little bit of hesitation of do we move forward with going to a counselor and digging up stuff, or do we just kind of keep posting on where we're at?13:41But I do feel a little bit of a drive to kind of address things just so it's one less thing that we have to worry about if he ends up serving any jail time that we've got ourselves in an ideal place before he goes away.14:04I don't know how much you're at Liberty to speak about any of this, Amanda, but is there any part of the factor of the jail time as to how long the sentence might be that would also play a role in some of your decisions? It looks like we lost her, Brandon, but hopefully she'll come back on here in just a second.14:29So there's actually quite a few other factors here that I think as we wait for her to get on here that are going to make this a little bit tricky. The good thing is that she's doing the right things. It sounds like right now where they've done the mental health assessment, they're going through the legal process, sounds like there's some level of work happening on their recoveries and also maybe on their relationship right now with what she's saying. I'm curious to know.14:55What she just said is really interesting to me. He's gone and dealt with it with the legal system, their relationships in a pretty good place right now. And so why not just kind of pretend like everything's okay and move forward? And Tyler, if I were to ask you that question, why not do that? Why not just kind of things are good right now. They're managing their relationship right now.15:25It's kind of peace in the family back together. Why not just kind of move along and have things be as good as they are right now? That would be the convenient option. Right. But the problem is that you're basically just kicking the Canyon on the road again, in the sense that the whole reason that we have her coming on the show is because kicking it down the road didn't work.15:57Right. So it's right back to what you were saying. It could be a convenient, easy thing to do now. There would be some merit to it. Actually. That's why I was trying to ask the question, is it's still up in the air as to where this thing is going to go? Where let's say he gets a 20 year sentence if she's staying in the marriage for 20 years while he's in prison? If the answer to that is no, then it might be worth it to just let things be nice where they are at now until some of those details fall through.16:27Tyler, I think those details are important, and I think they're beside the point. A little bit in that 20 years, 40 years, 60 years, whatever he gets. The reality is, in order for that relationship to really be healthy long term, then whether he's in prison, whether he's out of prison. Hey, Amanda. Welcome back. Sorry about that.16:58Oh, you're fine. No problem. Tyler and I were just kind of breaking down things without you here. So we'll fill you in kind of where we're at. What Tyler was saying is he was wondering if his sentence, however long he is in prison or gone away or whatever, will that affect your decision in terms of how you move forward? That's the elephant in the room.17:28Of course, one of the Max settings, if I remember right, it could be five to 15 years. 15 years.17:49And if he were to have the book thrown at him and he was at 15 years, I want to think that I'm strong enough to stick with them. But to be completely Truthful, I don't know if I am strong enough that makes any sense.18:20I guess that's why I do want to clear everything at this point. Amanda, that's kind of out of your control. Right? Right. The judge is going to make that. So in this moment, what you can do is say, okay, I'm going to move forward as if we are going to be together, because I want to be.18:47We'll see what happens when that number comes in, right. Of how long he's gone. Right. I tell myself if it's around five years, I can suck it up. Yeah.But if it's longer, it's just my kids missing out on the father figure and just having that male influence in their lives that holds heavy on my heart.19:19Right. This is a hard situation. I mean, these things are always hard. Brandon, I'm sure you've seen several of these kind of cases come through your office. I know I've got some right now going on in mind. It's hard stuff to try to figure that out. The reason I was asking that is because and Brandon, I want to hear what you were having to say on this because you said it doesn't really matter.19:44But fixing the marriage right now instantly might not be the right course of action when you've got so much else that you could be doing, namely your individual work on recovery and healing from betrayal and also making the right choices towards healthy wholehearted lives. If things are good in the marriage and you don't know yet what that's going to be, then going deep into, like, healing the marriage right now, I don't know is the top priority.20:18Whether it's five or 15 years, that does matter. That's a big deal, right? Yeah. But what I was saying is if he were to get 60 years or 70 or two days, if he doesn't really heal and work on getting in recovery, then he might get out tomorrow and you jump back in a relationship with him and you're going to end up in that desperate place of loneliness and not really feeling like you're in a marriage.20:51Right? Right. Amanda, if you take two unhealthy people and you bring them to couples counseling and they focus on the relationship and try to fix the relationship, but they're unhealthy on an individual level, what's going to happen to that relationship going to be a shaky foundation, right? Yeah.21:22If the therapist focuses on that relationship, they're going to be beating their head against a wall. The therapist will probably get blamed for not being able to fix the relationship. And the couple is going to be extremely frustrated because they're still not going to get their bids met for connection from the other party because the ability to be vulnerable and intimate and connect is not there because of the unhealthy ingredients, so to speak, the two parties coming into the relationship.21:54So what Tyler is saying is very true of you want to look at this and say, okay, this whole thing has happened. You've been married for how long? We're going on 15 years this year. Okay. Awesome. So 15 years. That's a long time. His addiction, I would guess, was there long before your marriage was. Right. So he brought that in. Right.22:22And then you brought some stuff into the marriage, too, some unhealthy stuff that it doesn't compare to the addiction as to what he's done in the relationship. But you brought your unhealthy stuff in as well, right? Yeah. And all of this stuff, I hate to tell you, Amanda, you got hit hard with consequence. Like, boom. All of this stuff, though, is like, now it's blown up suicide to the relationship. It's happened.22:50The old relationship is over and done. Okay. Now you can jump right back in and create a very similar relationship, or you can say, no, I'm going to back up here. A man is going to be healthy, and I'm going to have a man who's either going to love this healthy me and be as healthy enough to be able to do that, or I'm not going to be in a relationship with a man who can't, whether it's my husband who gets out of prison or whether it's a future guy that I meet whatever.23:23Right. I'm going to be that type of person who doesn't find myself in the situation where I'm desperately reaching out because I'm so lonely and so desperate. Right. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Brandon, why do I have the AI song Dead and Gone going through my head right now? What do you mean?23:53The whole lyrics to that song is the old me is dead and gone and he's creating a new life for himself. And I think really what you're getting at here with this, Brandon, is that if the focus here is to go into marriage therapy, that's not the right thing right now, because right now what needs to happen is that Amanda, at a minimum, needs to be figuring out who she wants to be, the kind of life she wants to live, focus on her own healing.24:17And part of that would be that she deserves to be in a relationship with a man who is committed to being healthy himself. And if there's a level of commitment that she senses and feels and sees that's going to help influence her decision as to whether or not she stays or goes based off of her getting into her own good health. Right. And so not only is there the dead and gone of the relationship, there's actually, in some ways, the dead and gone of the way of life of both individuals in that relationship.24:47And if both are committed to a new life, then there's hope there. But there's only one side of commitment. There's not enough for the relationship life, then the relationship is much the original D Day was October 1 of last year. So we've been dealing with the evaluation and the court proceedings, and he's been in counseling since that December afterwards.25:20So he's been working on himself. And even though he's still guarded, this is the most open I've seen him ever.25:39And for the most part, prison is the wrong word. But I guess the help and the input of his counselor and those around him, he's still got a little ways to go with that.26:06But he's committed to his recovery, which is his release. It took him a while to kind of really commit, but now that he is, I guess that's why I've decided to stay. As of now, I would just say, just as a word of caution, this is a side note.26:35I think it can be extremely courageous and loyal for you to stay, and it's going to take a lot of strength. Right. I don't think there's anything wrong with you staying at all. I do think it's problematic if you stay because you talk yourself into it. So you try to see what you want rather than what is right. So he's working recovery.27:04He's doing some things. So that's what I want. So that's what I'm seeing. I'm not saying he's not right. But the reason why your work and you getting as healthy as you possibly can be is so that you can fine tune that intuition and that discernment, to be able to be very honest with yourself about what you feel and your actions aren't done out of fear of like, yes, I want to keep the family together, and we're going to pieces. It's done out of power.27:33You're stepping into a powerful place of honesty with yourself. And that's so important for you, Amanda, because you've dealt with somebody who has been extremely manipulative, probably very convincing, probably very good at pulling the wool over your eyes.27:53It's very important for you to know truth, step into truth, step into your powerful, authentic boundaries when you need to so that you protect against falling back into a relationship where you think things are good, but they're really not that good to what Amanda is saying. Brandon, I do think that she's on the right track a little bit here with it, saying that it's not that he's just going to treatment.28:24You've sensed and felt some type of a shift or a softening as well. And maybe it doesn't quite feel like it's fully shifted or softened. But I think that's what Brandon is getting at here is that doing your own work will create a broader foundation to be able to sense and feel those things if they're authentic and also not have to deceive yourself if they're not actually there yet. That perspective.28:54Yeah. Amanda, when you were in that real desperate place, that real lonely place, what was lacking that you needed in your relationship? I'd say a motion vulnerability. Okay. Is he doing on what side? On both sides. From which side?29:24From both sides, mostly from him. I've struggled with depression all my life, and in the last three or four years, I've gotten really good at coming forward with what I'm feeling and where I'm at, but I was not getting any of that back as far as where he's at. And just that honesty and vulnerability.30:00The question I have. Yeah. I like how you say honesty, honesty, empathy, validation, resonating with your connection is what we're talking about. Right. Exactly. Is he doing the work to be able to be that type of partner with you right now, the actual work?30:26Are you referring to what he's working with, his counselor? Yeah. So you're asking about should we do couples work so we can start to figure out how to do that with each other? And what I'm asking is on an individual level, do you feel like he's doing the hard work to create the shift so that he can be a partner who can be vulnerable with you and connects to you and not just stop the behavior of the acting out?30:57Interesting question and thought. I think he's not quite there yet. As far as doing his side of the work, I think he's still getting used to the flow of therapy in introspection.31:31So I don't think he's quite that point of doing that on a couple basis, if that makes sense. Yeah.31:46I mean, after years of therapy with my own depression and you guys see what your meaning is, seeing his contribution and a lot of it is still coming from me as far as let's listen to this podcast, let's do this workbook or let's do something like that.32:20For the most part comes from me. I think Brandon is also getting at, you know, like it's not maybe Brandon, you weren't getting at the specifics of which workbook or this. What you're saying is it's going to be impossible for the relationship to heal itself unless there's a commitment to shame, resiliency, meaning he's leaning in in his work saying, okay, I am going to confront my darkness.32:50I'm going to learn how to speak it. I'm going to learn how to practice empathy. I'm going to learn how to be vulnerable myself. I'm going to learnhow to be able to hear something from my wife that doesn't feel good but still be able to hold the space that I need to. And too often, what I think happens in relationships, especially in recovery like this, is that, say, a husband will get into the recovery process and he'll be going to work on the sobriety part of things, but never really address all of those other things with the shame resiliency.33:19And so then there is never a place for that work to be done in the marriage because the shame hasn't been learned to be managed yet. Basically, every time Amanda, you go to your husband and you say, hey, let's talk about our feelings. What likely he hears is let's hear about how I've screwed everything up and how terrible I am, and then I'll either disappear or I'll get defensive. And unless there's a commitment to say, oh, I can hear her feelings and not take it personal, that work is going to be really difficult.33:56He doesn't take things incredibly personal sometimes, but he's just like one of those where it just kind of bounces off of them. That makes sense. And he'll hear it, but he won't hear it if that makes sense. He does.34:18But yeah, like you said, he can't get into a defensive place that would be normal. I tell you what, apathy is one of the most effective, best defense mechanisms, but it's also extremely destructive to a relationship if he's good at not caring.34:48And I'll say for myself, I'm actually more of the defensive one when something is brought up, I'm working on it, but I get pretty defensive. Well, you're probably more of the emotional so he can go to apathy to disconnect, hey, I'm just going to not care and I'm going to disconnect. And you're more of the hey, right.35:15Yeah. So, Amanda, kind of what Tyler was saying. This runs deep. Like, what we're talking about is we don't want you to focus on Kay. Is he not going to act out in the ways that he has before? Right, right. We're talking about, like, he started to learn at a very young age how to be dishonest and how that works for him. He started to learn at a very young age faulty core beliefs about himself and who he is and why he needs to defend against that.35:50You started to believe some of those things, too, about you and your shame and your faulty core beliefs. And so when we talk about doing your own individual work, what we're talking about, like, let's take him, for example, is for him to say, okay, you kind of start backwards. In what ways am I a liar. In what ways do I deflect? He probably can't even see some of those things because they're so unconscious and automatic. So a good group or a good therapist will help him see, look, there's your disconnecting behavior.36:22There you go, manipulating that. Do you see that? So he starts to catch those things and realize, oh, my gosh, look how I do this. So he starts to realize how he's disconnecting. The next step is to look at, why am I disconnecting? What am I afraid of? What is so terrifying that I might get seen as? Because I need to deal with that demon. I need to be able to let somebody see me as that so that I can be honest.36:54And so I need to step into that real, scary, vulnerable place. And this is what Tyler is talking about with shame. Resiliency is okay. My wife might see me as a pervert or as a failure, and she's mad at me right now. So instead of lying and manipulating or brushing it off, I'm going to actually step intosome empathy to her emotion about how she's feeling, because I'm strong enough to do that now.37:23That's what you want to feel from him. But that takes work to get to that place. And that work is deep rooted seed work. Right? And it's a process. So it's like, it's not like us having this conversation and you going and saying, oh, I just need to do this stuff now. Like, tomorrow. He's going to be like, oh, hey, tell me about it. I can't wait to hear what you think of me. That's going to be a process.37:53And if there's a commitment to that process, then it's okay to then both of you be doing your own process while still in the relationship. If there's not a commitment to that process, it's going to be a long, hard road or it's going to probably not break the way. Since he has started his counseling, I've been encounting all along doing a lot of introspection, at least for myself.38:21I think that's why our relationship is as good as it is right now. Good man. Are you doing any trauma work yourself, like EMDR arts work or anything? I started EMDR with someone, and then I was working with another lady, and she's supposed to be a trauma therapist, but we really haven't addressed any of the trauma.38:52Really? Okay, I'd encourage you to kind of kick your therapist, but a little bit and go in there and say, I want to work on the trauma. Like, whatever your trauma is, whether it's your childhood trauma or your betrayal trauma, I'm here to address that. I want to face it. I want to deal with it. And if the therapist wants to talk about your week or the weather, then get a different therapist.39:21I hate to say that, but at this point in the game for you to really focus on that trauma work for you. That's where I would start. Okay, Tyler, what do you think? No, I think 100%. You also said something to Brandon. I want to ask you, Amanda, are you connected Besides to a therapist, are you connected to any other people you trust, like a group or other people in your circle that you can trust?39:49The addiction recovery program through my Church, I'm doing that with a life coach that I also work with. So like I said, I've got kind of counseling from a few different aspects. The life coach, honestly, has been the most, I guess, Earth shattering as far as making progress in feelings.40:25Nice. Yeah, she's been amazing and the addiction recovery program has been her spouses has been amazing to have that group of women to obviously I'm not able to share details with them per se, but just knowing I'm not alone. But other than that, it's just my mom family.41:02I think it's vitally important that on both sides, when you're in a situation like you're in both sides, have some level of a team there to help kind of hold some of the stuff, hold accountability, but also show support, practice empathy.41:17Besides doing your own trauma work the way Brandon was discussing, which I think is spot on, that's exactly where a lot of your work should be because that's going to be shame resiliency work really is being able to have a landing spot where certain people who maybe know what you're going through or speak your language and also for your husband. Same thing. If he doesn't have a group, if there is anything that I wouldrecommend to him, first and foremost, it would be getting a good group.41:45And I might even look into something a little bit more intensive than just like a support group, because he's going to need someone to hold some of those vulnerabilities as they come out and show them that they still love him and that they still matter, that he still matters to them and hold them accountable, help with the shame resiliency in addition to all the other work. And it's also going to bring the accountability piece, which is Unfortunately, I mean, he's got his family, but that's kind of what created some of those issues in the first place.42:26Yes, it would be really nice if he would look at joining either a therapy group or for starters, a twelve step group. But I think a therapy group is where it would really be most effective for him because in the right kind of a group, he's going to be able to come and say, hey, my wife thinks I'm a pervert and there's going to be other guys in there that go, yeah, dude, you're not alone.42:45I did join a group specifically for offenders, the moral recognition therapy base. Honestly, since he's been in that group and going through that workbook, that's when I see the most change from him. Once he started that.43:08That one has really made a difference in terms of principles. When we talk about building a team, there are a few principles that I always kind of refer my clients to think about is one, is this person willing to learn what I'm going through and be able to speak my language, understand the principles of it. So they're not just giving me some backwards advice because they've been willing to learn and insert themselves.43:37Number two, can they be trusted and hold my information and not share it everywhere? Number three, can they balance showing empathy but also pushing me for change. Right. So that you're getting both of those things. And then four, they'll respect me to make my own decisions and not try to control what I do. And if you find any people that meet those criteria, that's a good place to start. And that's why something like a group is a good place to start, because it sort of tries to build those things in right off the bat.44:07But if you have other people, that's fine, too. You just need a team. I think that's definitely something he's kind of lacking. He's got the MRT. Group, but outside of that, he really doesn't have, I guess, anybody of quality. I just want to kind of back up and take a view of kind of our conversation for a second, Amanda. So to get to the answer to your question is it can be kind of frustrating a little bit.44:38I think when it's like, man, I want to work on this relationship, and it's, hey, we've gone a couple's counseling. How do we get started as a couple? And Tyler and I have kind of like, in a way been like, yeah, that's great. Couples counseling. Don't do that. Focus on yourselves. And now we're going through this list of like, what is he doing? What groups is he doing? But the fact of the matter is, we really don't want you to do more damage to yourself or waste time and money.45:11That's not going to work until you really do start to on both ends him. And you get that recovery capital, get the tools in place for you to learn how to process emotion and be honest with your emotions and listen to what they're telling you. That's awesome. If you're doing that work right now,that's awesome. Pretty proud of it. Yeah. Good job. So stay in that process for now.45:37That's where you need to be right now and to focus on you being healthy and you moving forward and kind of letting go of the relationship in some way. Like, okay, it might work. It might not work. Okay. But I'm going to be solid and can you work with him logistically? Like, yeah, we're married still, and we have a relationship, and things are good right now, but we're not going to do this deep work until I really feel solid within myself.46:06Yeah, that's where you start. I use an analogy sometimes where it's like if you're driving down the road and you've got a little bit of traffic on the road, you got to deal with the traffic that's right in front of you. Even though off to the left hand or right hand side up in the distance, there's some other stuff there that's going to need to be dealt with. Maybe there are storm clouds up ahead that need to be dealt with. It's still in the picture like your marriage is still in the picture.46:34It just needs to be in the peripheral just a little bit because the place where you guys are at is building foundations that will allow you to address that marriage stuff. If you'll both be willing to do that, then eventually as you drive you're going to get to that target and you're going to have to deal with it. So in the meantime it's part of who you are because you're a wife. It's part of who he is because he's a husband.46:57You should both focus on being the best wife or husband that you can possibly be and put the fixing of the marriage just out the to peripheral while you both establish some shame resiliency. Yeah, it does. Does that make sense? It really does. All right, Amanda, well, with that we're running out of time. It's been great talking to you today. Thank you for having the courage to come on and to ask your questions and to share with us some of your story.47:27All right. Thank you. Have a good one. We'll see you. You're awesome, Amanda. Thank you.