#103: How Long Should I Wait For My Partner’s Recovery?

00:00How long should I wait for my partner's recovery? Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers. We're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with Real Recovery.00:34Well, Tyler, that's a question I've never heard. I'm just kidding. I know. I've heard it many times. Yeah, definitely. And I'm not sure we're going to have a really amazing concrete answer either, Brandon.00:49Yeah, I got a few answers because I've been asked it so many times. Yeah. It's a common one. But I'm sure as we talk to our guests, there's some unique things going on that really help flush out the answer to that question. Should we just dive into it? Yeah. Okay. Melissa, welcome to the show. Thank you. So you're coming to us from down under.01:18Yeah, that's correct. Are you there, Melissa? Yeah. Awesome. If you would give us just a little bit of background, tell us what's going on, and then hopefully we can get to answering your question. So discovery for me was July 2020, and I was living over in the UK at the time with my husband.01:50My daughter was not quite when she was about eight months old, nine months old. And it was just a really Rocky start for his recovery. And it was just Melissa, this is middle of covet is what you're saying. Yeah. So we'd kind of been sort of stuck over in Australia with Cove, and then we managed to get back to the UK and then it all kind of came out a week after getting back.02:18So it was all very big, but it always is, isn't it? And then, yes, I made the decision to come back to Australia because his recovery wasn't very stable and it just wasn't healthy for me. And I knew that was the right decision then. And with the way the world was, I knew I couldn't just make that decision at last minute. I had to sort of pre plan that. So I did that.02:47And I think that was one of the best things, one of the hardest things being away. It's been twelve months now. And doing that with my daughter, she's so young. But it was definitely one of the best things for both of us having that time to really work on ourselves. I really had to get acceptance. I was in a victimhood for quite a while, and I reached a point where I was like, I can't survive like this anymore.03:17This is not going to be my life. I just have to accept this. I'm a single mom. My husband is a sex additive wherever he is in his recovery, and I have no control about that. And I have an opportunity to make my life look better going forward. And I did that. And I think doing that allowed me to really set some boundaries and step into my voice a lot.03:46And at that point, that was when he confessed to being in relapse basically for most part of the start of this year. And then he finally I think that wasprobably his point where he hit rock bottom and he's been sober for five months now. So since June this year, and he's doing really well, and I can definitely see a change in him. He arrived here a week ago, actually.04:17So it's been quiet an up and down week. And I think in that time, what I've realized is we've both done so much of our own work, and there is definitely some couple's work to do to change things because we're slipping right back into that dynamic that we were when he was in addict mode. And we don't know how else to do that at this point.04:43But he's very reluctant to work on the couple ship because he says he doesn't know what he wants going forward because he is trying to work out who he is. He's been an addict for so long. He doesn't know who he is and what he wants, and he's just learning intimacy, even with himself. But for me, what I can see is that if we don't change anything, nothing will change.05:13So if we keep going like this, we're just going to destroy any chance of a new relationship. To me, that old relationship is gone. It's finished over. I don't want that relationship. I want a new one with this new man that I can see is doing the work and he is more present and aware of himself. I guess my question is how long do I wait?05:45Because he's come over here for a few months and he's like, I will see how it goes. Like, we'll see how we get on together and then we can only live one day at a time. And for me, that's just really frustrating because I'm like, well, at the moment he's here in my house and I feel like we're just housemates and it's just this really weird dynamic. And I respect his recovery and I respect that he needs to do what he needs to do.06:12But we had agreed also to doing disclosure before he came over here, and that was supposed to be in August and then September and then October. I did my set of questions and gave them to him and he's read them and apparently answered them. But then he said that he couldn't do disclosure because he's doing his step four, and it's too hard to do both together.06:36So I'm always in this situation where I'm like, I put forward what I want and what I need, and if he can't meet it, then I feel like I'm losing my voice and I don't know how much I should push that or yeah, I guess that's my question. So how long do you wait? There's been a lot of distant recovery.07:00You're now together and now you're trying to decide with the short, limited amount of time to be together, what to do and whether or not you should stay or go in the relationship based off of some of the factors that you can measure, which is whether or not he wants to do a disclosure and whether or not there's going to be any level of work that goes on. Is that basically what you were saying, Melissa? Yeah, I think so.07:27And it's like he has agreed to, I think next week, actually, we actually have an assessment with you, Tyler, and he has agreed to that. And we've tried some couples therapy, but whenever we've gotten into the couple's therapy, he's been very good at manipulating it to just be very like it's almost like the last one we had, it was just like a mediator. And I said, Tim, we're just wasting our time and our money because we can have these discussions on our own.07:58We're not getting anywhere. Like, we need to be challenged. And I know Ineed to be challenged. I know I have my defaults. And so he has agreed to that. But he's still very like whenever it comes to talking about our relationship or a future or anything, he's just really like it just shuts off. It's just like the gates go up. And yes, he's very avoidant, like intimate avoidance.08:29Well, I'm just wondering why do you think that is? Why is he avoidant when it comes to the relationship and with you? I think it was something that was going on when he was actively in his addiction, and that was because of a lot of shame and guilt. And he has even said that himself.08:56And I think now he has said to me that he's just turned 40. And he said that as long as he can remember, like at least since he was like 1617 is probably when it started. And so he said he hasn't been truly intimate with anybody. And he said he knows that there is a deeper love there for me.09:19But I think for him he's scared because he doesn't want to lose his recovery, which is fair enough. And I don't want him to lose it either. But I also don't want to be going on like twelve months, two years, and we're still in this situation. So for me, I'm feeling impatient. And I guess that's where my question stems from.09:47It's like, is it reasonable just to sit and give a little bit more time and is this a normal sort of process, or is he just avoiding, you know, and I feel like it's going to get to the situation where I just call it a day because I'm like, I can't sit here being awaiting a sitting duck anymore, but I don't want to do that without knowing that I've tried everything and I've done my best to try and make the relationship work.10:22So that's why I want to do some of the couple's recovery work and see how that works. And then we know, okay, we've tried all this stuff. Now it doesn't work, rather than just walking away before we even give it a go. So a couple of things. First, Melissa, with your own kind of heart and sense, you've obviously been doing a lot of your own work here. It sounds like you acknowledge that he's done some work on his own in terms of his own recovery, and he's talking to you if he's working on step four.10:52I know that that's a massive step for a lot of people. If they're working the twelve steps. Do you get the sense that that work is genuine and authentic? I do, because I can see the change in him. And it actually sometimes frustrates me because he used to be very, like, dooms and goons, and I was always trying to put a positive spice on everything and like, come on, like, keep your spirit up, whatever. And now it's like he's so much more like, oh, that's okay.11:22Let's just only live one day at a time. And I'm like, oh, that really frustrates me because now you're like more in that way than I am. And I spent, like, three, four years of our relationship trying to create that dynamic. So I definitely can see a whole lot of change. And his recovery comes first, which is what I want to see. I wouldn't want him to compromise that. And that's all self driven.11:52Yeah. Yes. He keeps his recovery very close to him, and I haven't really tried to touch I don't want to if anything, he comes onto my side of the street more. That's what we've noticed in the last week. But I don't try to step into that, and I don't really want to.12:23I've reached that point where I was like, I surrendered to that, and I was like, I don't need to control that. Okay, good. So there's a lot of work that's been done on both sides. And the reason I asked that is because I wouldn't suggest you guys do a whole bunch of marriage work unless there was actual commitment to recovery work on both sides. But because there's commitment on both sides, yeah. I think it would be okay for you to then lean into some couples recovery work that's going along in conjunction with your own individual recovery processes.12:55And if you're getting a sense that his heart is genuine and the work he's doing and you obviously are in a relationship with him because there's a lot of other good things about him, then it might be worth it, too. It is going to be a process like, you're not going to fix that avoidance right off the bat, but there's definitely some things that can be done and some work that can be done to help with that process.13:20But Tyler, I would say and I'd like your two cent on this that avoidant behavior that she's experiencing in her marriage. It has hints of some intimacy anorexia type stuff going on. And we see this a lot where they hold their recovery really close to their vests. I'm doing this thing. It's important to me. That's good.13:48It's good that they're Proactive in their own recovery and that their recovery is important to them. And it's good that their wife is not driving the recovery. That's all good stuff. But what's not good is this is I don't want to be vulnerable with you about it. I'm scared to there's a level of intimacy, of vulnerability to my recovery. And the strength and recovery is this where I can share my recovery with my partner and I can also make it mine.14:21First and foremost, I want to talk openly about what I'm learning and how I'm growing. And if she tries to control it or jump in too far or tell me that I'm not doing it right or whatever it is, I can deal with that. That's okay. I can have my boundaries and I can still work my recovery on my own. Melissa, what I'm hearing is it's almost like this is what I'm sensing. Like, Yay, he's doing his recovery.14:51But the disclosure thing is really curious to me. Well, I'll work on my own individual step four. But to do something really vulnerable with you, I'm going to find reasons not to do that. I want recovery. I want our marriage, but I don't want to get too close to you. Tyler Patrick With Lovestrong here, we frequently get requests from our listeners about how to access our services. I wanted to let you know about a great opportunity to be involved with our online Foundations of Recovery class.15:19You can find more information@lovestrong.com under the Services tab if you're looking to build your recovery from sexual addiction or betrayal trauma, on principles of wholehearted living, and to experience the journey with others who are striving to do the same. This course is absolutely for you, regardless of where you live. Over the course of six weeks, you'll be introduced to the foundational principles of healing and recovery. Our next online course is starting soon. Again. If you're interested, you can find more information@lovestrong.com under the Services tab.15:49And from your standpoint, Melissa, it's this thing of like, yeah, you're working recovery, but is our relationship really going to get better? Am I going to feel love and am I going to feel intimacy? Is that really going tohappen? Is that kind of what you're feeling? Yeah, I would definitely say that. And to add to that, I would say what goes through my head when sometimes I have these moments where I'm like, I just need to leave.16:16But I then have this, like, he does share like you said, he does share parts of his recovery. And I can see that we have this ability to be able to talk about deeper things. And in my head, I go, well, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. And I now, after experiencing this, would want a relationship which is so much deeper and where I can really get to know that person.16:49I don't think I ever really had that chance with him or even a lot of other previous partners. So it's like, I don't want to live with an addict, but I do want to live with an addict because what recovery has offered both of us is actually a gift and something that can be really enriching in a relationship because we now speak a different language and we can now have a different level of acceptance for each other.17:19And I think I would probably go into other relationships wanting this, and they'd be like, oh, my gosh, she's a psycho. But yes, I think that's what sort of holds me here. Plus, I'm like, my gut hasn't told me that yet. And I know I do trust my gut and I do care for him. I want to know that we've had this opportunity because he is, as Brandon said, really intimacy and intimate avoidance.17:46And he knows that, but he's not yet able to take that step to vulnerability. It's a real fear to be vulnerable with me in particular. Okay. Yeah. So, Brandon, you made a statement there, and I would like for you to just clarify your own thoughts a little bit and explain this, too. Is that okay?18:13Let's say we've nailed this and that he is intimacy avoidant, or he's got some level of, like, intimacy anorexia a little bit. Whatever we want to call it. Yeah, whatever you want to call it. What is the course forward? Is it simply just to say that's it get a divorce? Yeah, that's a great question. Because what you were saying to Melissa earlier is there is this space of sitting back and observing your partner to see if they're going to work their recovery.18:50It's never just automatic and linear. So it's never just like, okay, he chose recovery. So voila, we're good now, and his addiction is gone. I've heard it said by other therapists, like, wait a year and then make some big decisions. I don't know if a year is the right time, but the point of that is give it some time to see, to see if the long term process of change is happening.19:25So, Melissa, you're into it some time now. And what I'm hearing you say is that you are seeing some changes. But coming back to your question, Tyler, that I haven't answered yet, if there is some intimacy avoidance, there the recovery work. If we look at addiction as an attachment disorder, addiction is a way to avoid attachment. It's a way to avoid connection or vulnerability.19:55Instead of dealing with life, dealing with emotions, your own emotions, connecting to yourself or other people's pain or whatever, you can just numb it out. I feel good. You just numb it out. Right. Addiction is an attachment disorder. Well, if you remove the addictive behaviors, the compulsive behaviors, it doesn't remove the attachment problems.20:21Sobriety can happen through going to twelve step white knuckling, workingyour steps, doing this stuff. Like, yeah, I'm sober, but the attachment issues are still there. If you look at the root of addiction, it's the same as intimacy, anorexia it's trauma that leads to shame, and that shame then leads to disconnection. And so, Melissa, as you're talking about this, when we talk about real recovery, it's not about your husband being diligent to stay sober.20:53It's about your husband really looking within to say, okay, what gets in the way of me being a vulnerable, intimate human being, and how can I deal with those things so that I can then show up in a relationship with you? Right. So the work is trauma work, Tyler. The work is really doing some EMDR art trauma work, figuring it out, figuring out those false beliefs, acting against that shame.21:25So practicing that vulnerability over and over again, that's the work. So you're saying that if Melissa is watching and seeing her husband, she says he's making some changes, he's definitely taking his own recovery serious and at least in terms of the traditional sense of sobriety, seriously, if he's actually working the steps and he's actually working through a step four, there's going to be some level of addressing of certain shamed things just in that one step itself.21:55If you work the steps, like, really, actually truly not work the steps in terms of like, yeah, my sponsor gave me these five assignments, so I did them. But if your heart really works the steps, you have to experience some vulnerability and some shame resiliency. So the steps are helpful in healing the roots to the addiction. Absolutely. So if that's the case and she's getting that gut feeling of, okay, I see that the work is happening, and maybe it's happening on a little bit more than just the sobriety level alone.22:31It would stand to reason that the other part of the work that she would be looking for and seeing without having to monitor it and manage it would be that he's addressing those deeper core issues, the shame and things like that, the trauma that he's experienced, there's still going to be some level of relational work to do in that context. Absolutely right.22:53And I think that's maybe part of the question that you're asking, Melissa is if all of those factors are true, which it sounds like they might be and they are, the question is, how long do I throw myself and in what ways do I throw myself into the couple's part of that while that work is happening before I realize maybe he's not going to do that intimacy work, he's just focused on sobriety. That's a great question.23:20And that's the question that Melissa, your gut fills out like, okay, how vulnerable do I get? How much do I test this, how much do I pull back as we go through this process of healing our relationship? Because, yes, Tyler, you're right. We can't avoid that. There's couples relational stuff going on, and that does need to be tested and addressed and understood as to where that's at. Melissa, as we're talking, what's going through your mind?23:49Yeah, I think exactly when everything that you said, Brandon, and that's probably how I feel. I feel like, yeah, I can see change. I can see that he's working his recovery. I can see that he's dedicated to that. I don't have a concern with that necessarily. But as you said, a part of that recovery needs to be that vulnerability because that's the root cause of the addiction and that avoidance and the reason why he numbs out.24:22So for me, I'm like at the moment, I'm like, is he just white knuckling? Is this just what white knuckling looks like? Because he's trying to stay sober, do everything in his power to stay sober. And a part of that means that he's pushing me away. And he won't face that because he's literally on the edge. Like any little bit of vulnerability will that tip him over?24:52And he has expressed that in this last week, even being here in Australia, because when we were here last year through the beginnings of covert, he said complete insanity. And I knew that at the time. And I think I'm probably one of the only people in this world that's actually grateful for covert.25:18I'm grateful because I don't think discovery would have happened if it weren't for covert. And also I was grateful for all the lockdowns so that I could just rest and recover and heal. Every time another lockdown was announced, I was like, yes, I can just focus on me and give myself time to heal. So I've had a different covert experience.25:48You know, it's interesting. I've worked with spouses who hate their partner's recovery. And it's interesting because this is usually what's going on is okay, he's getting sober. He's working on this thing. He's working his twelve steps. And I still feel so miserable and alone and stuck in this relationship.26:15And so now that his addiction is kind of going away, it'll make it so that I'm really stuck because now I don't have a reason to leave and I want out because I feel so lonely and I feel so miserable. It's more common than you might think. And it speaks to kind of the attachment part of this whole thing is, you know, somebody who's in recovery, the telltale sign of it, the best sign of it is that they can be vulnerable with Godself and others, that they can be intimate, that they can really create connection in their life.26:55And sobriety is not recovery. Sobriety work is not recovery. And the process it takes a little bit of process to get to that place. And sobriety is one of the first steps of it is to get to that place of I am ready. I'm shame resilient enough to really desire connection. Yeah.27:20I think, Brandon, that idea of recovery being about intimacy with Godself and others is something that not everybody subscribes to. But that's the question that I would be, Melissa. That's the question I'd be taking back to your husband. Just saying, I see all this great work happening, and I feel in sense that you're committed to it. But to what end? Right.27:46Because if I'm not part of that end, if being the kind of husband that is engaged and present, that's one of those things that comes with real, authentic recovery work is learning the skill of learning how to be engaged and present and vulnerable and empathetic. And it sounds like you're getting some empathy and it sounds like you have some level of communication. You guys do okay with communication. But what's the end goal of all of this recovery if it's just to stop looking at pornography, you're acting out sexually.28:15That's not a big enough goal. It's got to be something bigger. And really it's got to be about what kind of man I want to be, what kind of husband I want to be, what kind of father I want to be. And I do all of this work so that I can show up the way that I want to and the way that God designed me to. What you have going for you right now is some good stuff. You've had a lotof time to do some healing, some skill building for yourself, some perspective taking.28:44You've got your gut intact where you can feel trust your gut. Now, he's jumped in and done a lot of his recovery work. And in addition to what Brandon said, I think doing that individual sort of trauma work is going to be important. But there's also some things here that could be helpful for individual and couples work. And one is this if he's working this twelve steps, like Brandon said, doing steps one through four is already doing a lot of what the disclosure process would be anyway.29:19If he's worked at step three, then he should not be afraid of a disclosure. Yeah, right. If step three is done, then doing the disclosure should be stepping right into it. Let's do it right. If he's actually worked step three. Right. And then the later steps would also be those things you're talking about, Brandon.29:43There's a whole lot of accountability and intimacy and vulnerability that comes along with those later steps, too, where when you're creating a list of the things in your life that you regret and then you're making a list of people in your life that you need to go make amends with, you can't really work the steps without stepping out of that sort of like that intimacy anorexia. And so what I would challenge if, Melissa, your husband was listening to this.30:10What I would challenge him to do is to rethink why he's doing those twelve steps and to realize that a lot of the work that he's already done are things that he could that's already work done towards a disclosure. And so it would just be being willing to lean into that process a little bit and to be able to share it with you, who is probably the most important person in his life. Yeah, I think exactly what both of you said.30:39And going back, Brennan saying that there's that difference between the recovery, and then there's like, okay. And Tyler said, what's the end goal? And that's what I'm trying to get from him. And every time I sort of bring that up, he's like, I can only take it one day at a time, take it one day at a time. And I'm like, that's all well and good. But sometimes you have to have a bit of a goal.31:07Like, I'm not asking for us to go buy a brand new house and car and really steadily and like, I'm just asking, can we take that first step towards it? I don't know what the end, like result of that will be, but I want to work towards it. And I think that goes back to my question. Like, how long do you wait for that action to be taken? Like, he keeps saying to me, I need to finish my step four.31:37But I'm like, well, what happens after that? Does he then need to finish his step five? Because sometimes he'll be able to make comments. Like, the other day he came out and he said to me, I bought a lottery ticket. If I win, I'll buy you and our daughter a house that you can live in and stuff. And I was like, well, that's really flattering, but does that mean that you have no intention of us all being together? So you just by me and her house. So I thought you could only live one day at a time.32:08But now you're thinking ahead. Like, that's contradictory. And he's like, It's fantasy. Melissa, do you sense that he doesn't want in to your relationship? I do. And I think that makes me feel really vulnerable at this point in timebecause he's waited twelve months, he's finally been able to come over to see his daughter. And I feel like he's just stringing it out while he's here.32:37And then he's going to be like, oh, cool, I've had my time with her and I don't want this too late. So I'm like, I don't know whether he's doing it just because he thinks he has to get time with his daughter. I don't. Melissa, the reparation work it's going to take to build trust again with you is going to be hard. And if his heart isn't wanting into the relationship, then he won't be willing to do what it takes to actually do that with you. And I know I'm being blunt.33:06I'm shooting straight with you here. That might be hard to hear, but he can keep you hanging on because of your daughter, because he doesn't want to face the reality of divorce or the finances or whatever. He can keep you hanging on for a long time and just give you a little bit of hope here and there. But what I would encourage you to do is to really be honest with yourself about what you're feeling from him and getting from him and not believe kind of the lies that keep you hanging on forever.33:44Now, if you're seeing that he does want you, but he's just navigating recovery and it's messy and it's a little bit tricky, then maybe you do hang in there through this process and be patient and kind of see. But I think I'm picking up something. I'm picking up that deep down your feeling like he might not want this. I do get glimpses of that. But then he is able to show empathy and compassion and all that.34:18And I think I'm having trouble deciphering whether that is because he has these moments where he really feels and he'll be able to come up and we had a really lovely day the other day, and he was able to come up and give me a hug and say thank you. It was such a nice day, and you can feel like he hugs me. But then it's almost like he pulls away, kind of like, oh, shit, it can't do that.34:44But then for me, it's like, is that intimacy that can come out? Or is that just like you said, those little glimpses of hope that just keeps me stringing along? Because as it is, we have a property and house in the UK, and he's got all of that. Like, I've just left all of that and come here. And it's like, is there that fear of him having to go through all of that?35:13I want to make a suggestion to you, Melissa, and I think this could be helpful. I'm actually really happy to hear that you're doing an assessment or intake with Tyler. I run my Lyft program. When somebody joins Lyft from night one, they know they're entering a program that goes anywhere from a year to a year and a half long.35:38That culminates if the couple gets there with a couple's group the last six months of the group. And what it does is your husband is actually right in saying, let's take one day at a time. Let's put 1ft in front of the other. But what it does is it does give a direction, it gives an outline, and it gives a system that says, hey, we're going to walk you through that process. The professionals here are going to hold your hand a little bit and also bring in other people going through similar things so that they support you through that entire process.36:11And I know Tyler has a program as well, his group program almost exactly like mine. I would really suggest that both you and him group therapy is very different than twelve step. And if both you and him walk that paththrough group therapy, you'll look back and you'll say, oh, now we see where we're going. It seems like it's a little convoluted right now. It's a little murky as to where you're going and why you're going there.36:42So, Tyler, anything you want to add to that? No. Yeah, I was just going to add. Well, I think that direction could really help. I am glad that you're going to be meeting with me. That's awesome. I think that there's a couple of things that the group therapy does that's even different than twelve step. One is that there's more talk on these kinds of principles that we're even talking about right now. There's a lot of that that goes on in the second parts of group that we do.37:07But also, I think it's okay to take it a day at a time, as long as some of the day at a time includes intentionally looking forward to the goals that you have set and to whether or not you're moving, you know where you're going in the right direction. You can't just wake up today and not have any a rudderless ship is just going to float about on the ocean and be tossed and turn wherever the wind pushes it.37:33But it's okay for you guys to make sure that you both have your rudders set in the direction that you both want to go. And if you can't come to the table and talk about that, that's going to be hitting on a little bit about what Brandon's concern was, which is that maybe he's really just still debating whether or not he really wants in or not. But Tyler wouldn't group kind of flush that out. If he could commit and even spend the money and the time and the effort and the energy, he would either do it or he wouldn't.38:04Right. Eventually, I guess he could hang in there. Yeah. I mean, it becomes just an extra expensive way of hanging in there if you do. Yeah. Which is not good. Right. But no, I think what else you get there is you get other people who are in like minded situations going, oh, this is taking a long time or wow, is this the right kind of work happening? So you're not totally in the dark, which it sounds like. Melissa, you've been doing your very best. Like, you've done a lot of learning, you've done a lot of work for yourself.38:33You've done a lot of healing. But having that extra level of sort of like perspective and push, too is pretty helpful. And so if your husband let's say he's got issues with that and he's like, man, I have a hard time. It sounds like things are moving in the general right direction because you're okay with him coming up and giving you a hug. He actually came up and did it before he backed away. That sounds like a step in the right direction to me.39:04And it would be nice if there was some extra structure and support there to push that and to say, okay, if she let you hug her, stay there and hold the space with her, don't disappear. She's wanting you and she's allowing you into that space and might be getting some extra gentle pushes other than you just saying, hey, come on, let's go to work on this as a couple. Yeah. And I think that's how I feel.39:31I've done a lot of work on acceptance. And now, sure, there are still triggers, but those triggers don't hit me as deep, and they don't paralyze me as much because I'm able to detach him from his addiction. And I think for him, he still carries a lot of shame for that. And that's a big barrier at the moment between putting our rudders in that direction.40:02And I definitely feel that exactly what you said. It's okay to take one day at a time, but with some kind of general destination in mind. Yeah. Somethinginteresting about the principles of mindfulness is this is everyone thinks that mindfulness is staying in the present moment, but mindfulness is also staying in the present moment in an effective way. And sometimes the most effective thing you can do with the present moment is to intentionally take a look at your future.40:35And that's still mindful. That's still one moment, one day at a time. But it's now done with intention. And that's something that in recovery is necessary is I need to set an intention we as a couple now. That's what I'm hearing is you're feeling pressured here because you only have them in town for maybe only a couple of months. And there's this need for both of you guys to have an intention set and to make sure that that intention lines up with one another.41:01And that's something that at a bare minimum, before he leaves, you should be on the same page with what your intentions are so that you can make those decisions. Yeah. And that can happen a day at a time, but it needs to happen probably in one of the sooner days than later ones. Tyler, I hate to drop this bomb right now, but I feel like I need to and I don't know. We don't know. I'm just going to say before I say this, we don't know.41:29But his resistance to disclosure and his resistance to getting too close kind of reeks to me of a secret. And I would wonder about that if there's the secret that he's terrified of. And what is that?41:56And until that's cleaned up, until that's dealt with, then we can psychoanalyze and do trauma work and have a group system and all this in place, but until that's dealt with, then that feeling of disconnect is going to be there. So, Melissa, I don't know if there's a secret or not, but just some of the things that you're saying kind of make me wonder a little bit. And I just want you to know that, Brandon, it could be you're saying a secret.42:25And I'm sure Melissa is thinking like, oh, there's another thing of disclosure I don't know about or something else, but it could be a lot of other things. It could be holding onto something shameful from my past or there's something in that that's so petrifyingly, like scary that it's being bogged down on and it needs to come out for his recovery to happen, for his heart to be able to heal, that's going to need to happen. But for the relationship, that's also going to be necessary.42:57If at some point you patch things up and you keep those things hiding, whether it's shame or secrets or whatever else it is, it's only a matter of time until that thing is going to cause another wall in the relationship and there's going to be that confusion of like, why are things not working between us? And it's really that everything needs to come to the surface.43:17I mean, hearing you say that's not any shock because there is something that I do feel may have happened and with a close friend of mine and it's like I've already come to terms with that and almost accepted that because I think that could potentially be it has been denied in the past, but I feel like that could potentially be what you're referring to, Brandon.43:47Like, that's my gut. Anyway, the thing is we don't know what we don't know, but I mean, off speculation, it's hard to go. But that's kind of the problem is that you don't know what you don't know. And so that's why a really good, healthy disclosure process is absolutely important for you to make these decisions and know where to go from here.44:19Melissa, we're running low on time, but I just want to thank you for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing with us, especially in the vulnerable state that you're in right now, to come on and talk openly and be vulnerable here on this podcast. So I really appreciate you. Thank you. I feel the same way, Melissa, thank you for your willingness to come on and talk and also to all of our listeners, thank you for listening and for sharing the things that are impactful for you that's one other way that Brandon and I are able to maybe help other people as well.44:50So you guys have an awesome week. All right. We'll see you guys.